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  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalgaryHawkFan View Post
    I remember having my worldview altered a huge amount when I was a kid, I'd always been the precocious youngster getting into adult conversations... anyway, we were living in Australia, I was nine or ten, and we met some expat Hungarians who'd fled the nation just prior to the tanks rolling into Budapest. The got quite angry with me for wanting to discuss the universal goodness of humanity. For them all Russians were evil.

    Prodded some interesting discussions with my parents after.
    Well the last thing you want to do as a parent is crush any optimism in your child at the age of nine or ten!

    Certainly a people don't want to repeat the same mistakes but I think we'd all be better off if we'd let go of many of our "grudges" from hundreds of years ago.

  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatsFan2003 View Post
    Well the last thing you want to do as a parent is crush any optimism in your child at the age of nine or ten!

    Certainly a people don't want to repeat the same mistakes but I think we'd all be better off if we'd let go of many of our "grudges" from hundreds of years ago.
    Well in fairness to the Hungarian couple, this was still fairly fresh. This would have been '74 or so? So eighteen years later...

    Of course one of the reasons that the Soviets were so harsh in Hungary was Hungary's part in the Nazi invasion of 1941.
    "the blade itself incites to violence." - Homer

    --

    "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - Kung fu Monkey

  3. #273
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    The Russians are a tough crew, any way you slice it. After watching the film EASTERN PROMISES with Viggo Mortenson I read up on the Russian Gangster way of life (I'm no expert, just Wiki and some articles). Those guys have a code and it makes the Cosa Nostra look like a beach party. They are not - in ANY WAY - to cooperate with authorities. They won't work in prison, they won't even ring the dinner bell. Stalin let them out if they'd fight in the war - afterwards those who survived, he put them right back in. Those who cooperated and fought for the Russian government were now mortal enemies to those who adhered to the code and refused. The Guards would pit them against each for fun. I suppose that was Stalin's idea of having some fun, with a little 'safety net' - most people he didn't care for he just had 'purged'. The Russians have a long, brutal history, so if you ever have to deal with one you best not forget that. They practically personify the term 'the spoils of war'.
    Gang Way!

  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rear Admiral View Post
    The Russians are a tough crew, any way you slice it. After watching the film EASTERN PROMISES with Viggo Mortenson I read up on the Russian Gangster way of life (I'm no expert, just Wiki and some articles). Those guys have a code and it makes the Cosa Nostra look like a beach party. They are not - in ANY WAY - to cooperate with authorities. They won't work in prison, they won't even ring the dinner bell. Stalin let them out if they'd fight in the war - afterwards those who survived, he put them right back in. Those who cooperated and fought for the Russian government were now mortal enemies to those who adhered to the code and refused. The Guards would pit them against each for fun. I suppose that was Stalin's idea of having some fun, with a little 'safety net' - most people he didn't care for he just had 'purged'. The Russians have a long, brutal history, so if you ever have to deal with one you best not forget that. They practically personify the term 'the spoils of war'.
    Great movie. I'm sure they are a scary bunch.

  5. #275
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    I remember around memorial day, History channel put on this "World Wars" special. Excellent series, and if you get a chance to watch it, do.

    In there, Colin Powell said something to this effect: "Russians distance themselves from anyone that has a different opinion. They don't want suggestions. They can't be reasoned with... In my military career, I had to shake hands with a lot of pigs"

  6. #276
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    Yeah, the Russians are bad ass in almost everything they do....
    "I would not join any club that would have someone like me for a member." - Groucho Marx

  7. #277
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    Another take:
    This is no way to suggest that Israeli civilians in Tel Aviv, Ashdod, Ashkelon, Jerusalem, or anywhere else deserve Hamas’ missiles. It is right to fear for their safety and to grieve when the rockets destroy lives. Every death is tragic. But crushing Gaza will not protect Israeli citizens.

    For Israel to permanently expel Hamas, it must maintain an occupation of Gaza. Israel knows this and knows the enormous ramifications of such. Full military occupation on two fronts is surely too daunting for Israeli leaders to pursue. The demographic threat of annexation is also too threatening, whether in the context of apartheid or true democracy. The only hope Israel could have had in such overwhelming force towards Gaza is to crush the Palestinian spirit into accepting the status quo and submitting to Israeli authority. But Israel surely knows this can never happen.

    The dream of Israel’s occupation has been to press down on the Palestinians so unbearably that they are forced to leave. One needs only to spend some time in the West Bank or Gaza before this becomes obvious. Yet, Israel has continually found that the harder they suppress the Palestinians, the deeper the Palestinian feet become rooted in the soil. Theirs is a struggle for freedom and self-determination. Collective punishment will not make them leave. It will only fan the flame of their determination and reignite their insurrection.

    If Israel wants peace and security, as it claims, it must end the occupation and blockade of the Palestinian territories. Hamas must disarm, but Israel cannot expect such a unilateral move from an occupied or blockaded people. As the structured and recognized power, the first move toward peace lies with Israel. To be satisfied with ceasefires and conflict settlement without offering any intention to deal with the deeper, motivating factors of injustice and external control is at best na´ve and at worst enabling.

    Israel has the right to security, and it is justified in its concern for such. But those who claim unwarranted aggression from the Palestinians must stop fooling themselves that Palestinians have an innate hatred towards the Jewish people and that military occupation and blockade have nothing to do with Palestinian violence. They have everything to do with it.


    Justice cannot be sacrificed for sustainable peace. Rather, justice is the foundation.

    - See more at: http://www.redletterchristians.org/p....dkeRX3AV.dpuf
    "Stop doing the wrong things. Stop promoting competition and choice as answers to the very inequality that was created by competition and choice."
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  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForWhoForWhat? View Post
    Another take:
    I think that bolded part is the author being naive. This conflict has been going on for so long, with so much bloodshed, so much distrust, that a significant portion of the Palestinian (and other) factions will have a blood feud with Israel until such time that Israel is wiped off the map. The grudges go DEEP and this episode only adds fuel to the fire. Israel is not naive enough to think that Hamas will 'disarm', even if they agree to - which I don't think they would, nor possibly even should (in their mind) given Israel's willingness to inflict carnage. They will see fighting back as the only alternative in times like these (vs. annihilation) - they're not a bunch of Ghandi's running around over there.

    Unfortunately, as I see it, the proliferation of WMD's looms particularly ominous for Israel in the future. And it makes their seemingly obvious approach of 'culling the herd' every so often appear somewhat reasonable. The problem with that is it eventually 'increases the herd', and unfortunately many non-combatants including children lose their lives horrifically, which never fades in the minds of survivors. I just don't get why most times these things go off - we hear about Israel hitting a school or a hospital - some things should be off limits, but maybe the militants hole up there thinking they're safe?
    Gang Way!

  9. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForWhoForWhat? View Post
    Another take:
    If Israel acts in a simple and straightforward way based on that kind of reasoning, there's an almost inevitable problem that will FUBAR things -- some factions among the Palestinians will benefit in internal politics by fomenting a continued state of war vs. Israel. And there's no natural way to stop them from doing just that.

    I guess one could make a counterargument by saying that Hezbollah forced conflict with Israel until it took charge in Lebanon, then backed off. But they also have a lot of other constituencies, inside and outside Lebanon, to placate, which for various reasons don't want to encourage Israel in warlike behavior. I don't see where the Palestinians have similar checks upon them.
    APF doesn't come in screaming at others about how stupid they are. APF doesn't spam NST with the same tired topic 30 times a month. APF doesn't link to some kook in his mom's basement telling you how to, "Be afraid. Be very afraid" of the world falling down around you. And, when APF is proven wrong, he acknowledges he made a mistake and moves on, rather than harping about "sheeple."

    -- Cory Bonini

    Welchie summarized

  10. #280
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    Why do the tunnels exist?

    Is that too simple a question?
    I promise I won't do it again

  11. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndromedaPatFan View Post
    If Israel acts in a simple and straightforward way based on that kind of reasoning, there's an almost inevitable problem that will FUBAR things -- some factions among the Palestinians will benefit in internal politics by fomenting a continued state of war vs. Israel. And there's no natural way to stop them from doing just that.

    I guess one could make a counterargument by saying that Hezbollah forced conflict with Israel until it took charge in Lebanon, then backed off. But they also have a lot of other constituencies, inside and outside Lebanon, to placate, which for various reasons don't want to encourage Israel in warlike behavior. I don't see where the Palestinians have similar checks upon them.
    We have to remember that just about every time these conflicts go brutal it's because Hamas - or one of the factions - is hurling rockets over into Israel constantly, daily. Fortunately (in a way), the rocket instigators don't have target specific capability, and Israel's Iron Dome defense can intercept many of them - those that get thru seem to fall harmlessly to the ground. But these are a) not aimed at military only facilities, and b) relentless. What are they supposed to do? Just rely on Iron Dome and hope it stops?

    It's a chicken and egg situation - to some degree, historically - but in these situations it's NOT - it's offensive attacks that are likely designed to bring an overwhelming response which is used to vilify Israel in the Arab world and... beyond. And yet it fails to bring any resolution.

    Do I live there and know from the ground what is REALLY happening? No. Do I trust American media reports? Not often. It's just that, hey, if somebody keeps pestering my family with rockets I'm eventually going to go kick their ass. And I'm going to make life hard on them until they come to the table and negotiate an end to the conflict.

    As in most conflicts - there are probably dirty tricks going on from both sides. If somebody wants to kill you, you don't sit around and wait for them to do it.
    Gang Way!

  12. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raid View Post
    Why do the tunnels exist?

    Is that too simple a question?

    Because they cross thru the tunnels to launch hit and run back attacks, to my knowledge.
    Gang Way!

  13. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rear Admiral View Post
    Because they cross thru the tunnels to launch hit and run back attacks, to my knowledge.
    That's what I thought. An attack.... civilians. I'm not upset at all with the Israeli response. Seems reasonable based on the terrorist attacks. Heck, we occupied a country (Afghanistan) for less than reasonable reasons. That country did not even attack us.
    I promise I won't do it again

  14. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raid View Post
    That's what I thought. An attack.... civilians. I'm not upset at all with the Israeli response. Seems reasonable based on the terrorist attacks. Heck, we occupied a country (Afghanistan) for less than reasonable reasons. That country did not even attack us.
    Don't quote me on this I'm not real certain - but from what I understand - they also use these tunnels to attempt abductions (of Israeli soldiers, often survivors in the wake of surprise attacks) and they were used in the killing of the three teens which started this latest 'skirmish'.

    I think I am correct on that, but I am not sure.
    Last edited by Rear Admiral; 07-27-2014 at 04:36 AM.
    Gang Way!

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