Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 456
Results 76 to 88 of 88
  1. #76
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Duchy of Grand Fenwick
    Posts
    34,361
    Quote Originally Posted by CalgaryHawkFan View Post
    Deterrence for future acts is the factor some seem to be wilfully ignoring.
    Not really. Somebody ALMOST suffering severe penalties, and skating by due to resources you don't have, is still deterrence.

    I don't think the lesson of the OJ trial was that you can stab your ex-wife on a sidewalk and get away with it.
    APF doesn't come in screaming at others about how stupid they are. APF doesn't spam NST with the same tired topic 30 times a month. APF doesn't link to some kook in his mom's basement telling you how to, "Be afraid. Be very afraid" of the world falling down around you. And, when APF is proven wrong, he acknowledges he made a mistake and moves on, rather than harping about "sheeple."

    -- Cory Bonini

    Welchie summarized

  2. #77
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    46,022
    Quote Originally Posted by Xulu Bak View Post
    Cuts both ways. Some acts are more likely to be repeated or escalated. In those instances, deterring 'future acts' can be valuable, but in many cases, you may be deterring more future good, than bad. If nothing else, the economic consequences outweigh the benefits.
    I'd love to see how you arrive at the economic conclusion.

    http://www.friendsdrivesober.org/alc...mic_costs.html

    Even take the Stallworth case, what's the economic cost to the family of the guy he killed?


    I don't think so from the reports at the time, or looking back at some stuff on the incident.
    Based on what? Stallworth himself says he was responsible.
    "the blade itself incites to violence." - Homer

    --

    "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - Kung fu Monkey

  3. #78
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    46,022
    Quote Originally Posted by AndromedaPatFan View Post
    Not really. Somebody ALMOST suffering severe penalties, and skating by due to resources you don't have, is still deterrence.

    I don't think the lesson of the OJ trial was that you can stab your ex-wife on a sidewalk and get away with it.
    My brother is a high functioning alcoholic. The deterrence factor is HUGE with his cutting down on his drunk driving, and that's AFTER being caught more than once. He's not alone in that.

    Other nations and cultures have gone even farther (and more draconian) in their attempts to deter. Why? Because it works.
    "the blade itself incites to violence." - Homer

    --

    "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - Kung fu Monkey

  4. #79
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    25,556
    Quote Originally Posted by CalgaryHawkFan View Post
    Other nations and cultures have gone even farther (and more draconian) in their attempts to deter. Why? Because it works.
    Come on now. Consequesnces for actions???

    Actually working, no say it isnt so...
    Ignorance is those who disparage believers....12 They will come and shout for joy on the heights of Zion; they will rejoice in the bounty of the LORD—the grain, the new wine and the olive oil, the young of the flocks and herds. They will be like a well-watered garden, and they will sorrow no more.
    13 Then young women will dance and be glad, young men and old as well. I will turn their mourning into gladness; I will give them comfort and joy instead of sorrow.

  5. #80
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Duchy of Grand Fenwick
    Posts
    34,361
    Quote Originally Posted by CalgaryHawkFan View Post
    My brother is a high functioning alcoholic. The deterrence factor is HUGE with his cutting down on his drunk driving, and that's AFTER being caught more than once. He's not alone in that.

    Other nations and cultures have gone even farther (and more draconian) in their attempts to deter. Why? Because it works.
    I don't dispute that.

    Rather, my point is that a lot of publicity around a special case in which somebody just barely is fortunate enough to escape draconian punishment can deter too.
    APF doesn't come in screaming at others about how stupid they are. APF doesn't spam NST with the same tired topic 30 times a month. APF doesn't link to some kook in his mom's basement telling you how to, "Be afraid. Be very afraid" of the world falling down around you. And, when APF is proven wrong, he acknowledges he made a mistake and moves on, rather than harping about "sheeple."

    -- Cory Bonini

    Welchie summarized

  6. #81
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Puyallup, Washington
    Posts
    28,818
    Quote Originally Posted by eaglesnut View Post
    Ummm no. Stallworth drinking isn't a necessary condition for that event. The guy's ill-timed run across the road is.
    Thousands of people jaywalk every day. Is it smart? No. But most don't end up dead either.

    That is the risk someone takes driving drunk. You lose (or should lose) the benefit of the doubt.

  7. #82
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Puyallup, Washington
    Posts
    28,818
    Quote Originally Posted by Fandango View Post
    I know that nothing Stallworth can do now can make up for the fact that he killed a man while driving drunk, but I do feel that his actions after the accident have shown more remorse and repentance than what is normally seen by wealthy people when they make a grave error like this.
    Agreed, but I still think he got off way too easy.

  8. #83
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Sneakin' through the alley with Sally
    Posts
    2,481
    A lot of the time, athletes do get off less harshly. There are times, though, when athletes (and celebrities in general) get treated worse by the criminal justice system because officials don't want to appear that they're taking it easy on a famous person. I think both Plaxico Burress and Michael Vick received harsher sentences than their crimes would ordinarily warrant because they were both athletes. I mean Burress hurt no one but himself and did almost two years hard time.
    "I just threw away a lifetime of guilt-free sex and floor seats for every sporting event in Madison Square Garden, so please, a little respect, for I am Costanza, lord of the idiots!"

  9. #84
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    30,554
    Quote Originally Posted by CalgaryHawkFan View Post
    I'd love to see how you arrive at the economic conclusion.

    http://www.friendsdrivesober.org/alc...mic_costs.html

    Even take the Stallworth case, what's the economic cost to the family of the guy he killed?




    Based on what? Stallworth himself says he was responsible.
    I thought you were talking deterrence in the "off the street" sense, not in the "you were bad, we're punishing you, so now you won't do it again" sense. It's pretty well established punishment is not a very effective form of behavior modification, and is really only effective when punishment is administered in close time proximity to the offense, which is most assuredly not the way our criminal justice system works.

    With regards to the "off the streets" form of deterrence, some individuals/rimes are more susceptible/prone to repeat offenses. Others are circumstance/poor judgment. Not justifying the behavior, merely pointing out that not all "taking off the streets" are equal. In Stalloworth's case, I suspect it had very little effect. Certainly much less than his own remorse, guilt, etc.

    Economically, the "costs" of the original crime are "sunk." You're not getting them back. Unless you're preventing future crime, prison only adds economic burden.

    As for Stallworth's responsibility, there's a huge difference between personal/moral/ethical/remorse driven responsibility and objective responsibility. He took responsibility because he felt it was the right thing to do, not because of an objective "why it happened" analysis.

  10. #85
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    46,022
    Quote Originally Posted by Xulu Bak View Post
    Unless you're preventing future crime, prison only adds economic burden.
    To clarify, I think most deterrence works not only on the person who offended, but on others who comtemplate doing the same.

    Having said that, does deterrence work? I don't think there's any doubt that it does work,at least on some level. Does the societal cost outweigh the benefits? I mean I personally prefer a carrot approach to a stick approach when it comes to crime and punishment, but having said that, the stick always has to be in play.

    Anecodtally to use the example of my relative, he only started taking it remotely seriously after being caught and losing his license for a year.

    Me? I got caught once in a checkstop, gunned out of my mind, and somehow blew green. Scared me so bad, I rarely took the chance after that (although I admit to being borderline a few times).

    I think some of the crazy foreign charges are over the top, particularly with young people being young, but I'm A-OK with multiple offenders being slapped down vigorously... (have no idea if Stallworth fit that description)
    "the blade itself incites to violence." - Homer

    --

    "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - Kung fu Monkey

  11. #86
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Philly
    Posts
    31,787
    Quote Originally Posted by seahawksfan837 View Post
    Thousands of people jaywalk every day. Is it smart? No. But most don't end up dead either.

    That is the risk someone takes driving drunk. You lose (or should lose) the benefit of the doubt.
    Thousands of people drive drunk everyday too. It may not be smart, but most don't cause any problems at all. I don't think that's the standard you want to use here.

    I'll ask you what I asked someone else. If Stallworth felt remorse, showed the family he was deeply sorry and asked what he could do to help then what exactly would be the point of having Stallworth rot in prison? Why destroy two lives?

  12. #87
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    38,510
    Quote Originally Posted by CalgaryHawkFan View Post
    Stallworth apparently disagrees with you.

    From Xulu's link, just so you don't miss it.

    Sounds like he felt bad about what happened. Also sounds like he would have been found not guilty. I'm pretty sure what you posted supports Eagles point, but I'm not surprised you haven't made that connection.
    "There were many ways of not burdening one's conscience, of shunning responsibility, looking away, keeping mum. When the unspeakable truth of the holocaust then became known at the end of the war, all too many of us claimed that they had not known anything about it or even suspected anything."

    - Richard Von Weizsaecker

  13. #88
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    46,022
    Quote Originally Posted by Yellowknifer View Post
    but I'm not surprised you haven't made that connection.
    Attaboy YK!
    "the blade itself incites to violence." - Homer

    --

    "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - Kung fu Monkey

Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 456

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  






Part of USA TODAY Sports Digital Properties.