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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyke1doe View Post
    But your implication is that the translators changed the meaning of the words. It is possible to translate a message from one language to another and render a correct translation.

    Nevertheless, you claimed translators deviated from the original message. And your proof of that is what? That would require an original message or an original text and subsequent text necessary to determine what should have been in the original that was omitted or altered in the translation.

    Can you cite any such evidence or proof?
    John 7:53-8:11.
    "And if there is nothing that can so hide the face of our fellow-man as morality can, religion can hide from us as nothing else can the face of God." -- Martin Buber

    "You do not like religion; we started from that assumption. But in conducting an honest battle against it, which is not completely without effort, you do not want to have fought against a shadow like the one with which we have struggled." -- Friedrich Schleiermacher

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyke1doe View Post
    I'm still trying to find this mysterious translator who creates a faith that excludes everyone from jump street then tells them they can only come one way and the "power" even to come is given by God, stripping humans of all self-effort in their attempts to obtain favor with God - a salvation plan contrary to every other religion devised by humans.
    You barely understand your own religion. Please don't make statements about other religions. This is like saying that baseball players suck at scoring touchdowns.
    "And if there is nothing that can so hide the face of our fellow-man as morality can, religion can hide from us as nothing else can the face of God." -- Martin Buber

    "You do not like religion; we started from that assumption. But in conducting an honest battle against it, which is not completely without effort, you do not want to have fought against a shadow like the one with which we have struggled." -- Friedrich Schleiermacher

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexPKeaton View Post
    I did not make any such claim. I simply pointed out that the original words had been translated, possibly many times. Translations often alter the original meaning.

    It is entirely reasonable to expect that some of he material was altered or "lost in translation."
    It's also entirely reasonable that translators attempted to be as faithful to the original meaning as possible.

    Your position assumes that translators had nefarious motives and changed the message. What got us to this point was my quotation of Jesus saying, "I am the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE, NO MAN comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

    And what I'm asking you is to offer some proof that Jesus didn't say that. Was that phrase outside of the oldest text we have of the Gospels?

    Now, I agree that it some cases (the excerpt in John where Jesus writes in the sand) and the King James' version calling the first Sunday after the Resurrection "Easter" before the term was in use, there were translation errors. But those errors have been later corrected or highlighted to show those were not a part of the original text.

    And they were changed because scholars are working from the oldest text they have. Even so, those changes don't impact the overall message of the Gospel. And John 14:6 falls in line with everything else the Bible says about Jesus and His sacrifice.

    Moreover, for the most part, biblical scholars and translators, because they viewed the Bible as God's inspired word, were very careful in how they translated words. I doubt they were as cavalier as you seem to make them out to be.
    "Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed but rather evolved." - Francis Crick.

    "For since the creation of the world, God's invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." - Romans 1:20

    "It's one reason I hate reading what Tyke writes. It just annoys the hell out of me." - Big Pink Monkey

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexPKeaton View Post
    Fair enough. Of course if those mistaken words were "always" and "never" then it could really foul up some gospel!
    But those words would have to be compared with a general theme. It's not enough to say that a word was mistranslated here or there.

    Your argument is that the very meaning of a concept and theme was changed. So you're basically saying, in the case of our disagreement, that the translators went through every section of the Gospels and changed the concept of salvation by the blood sacrifice of Jesus (a theme that is also strongly hinted at in the Old Testament) from a doctrine/concept/theme that was vastly different than what the Gospels and New Testament currently articulate.

    And if you believe this to be, I'm asking you to offer some proof of these nefarious translators who did such, other than a general, sweeping statements about words being "lost in translation." That's similar to claims about the "possibility of life outside our world in an infinite universe." Yes, it sounds reasonable from a wishful-thinking perspective, but there's no evidence to support it. Yet, people want to believe it because it sounds reasonable.
    "Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed but rather evolved." - Francis Crick.

    "For since the creation of the world, God's invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." - Romans 1:20

    "It's one reason I hate reading what Tyke writes. It just annoys the hell out of me." - Big Pink Monkey

  5. #125
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    It doesn't sound reasonable, it is reasonable. Whether you believe in a god or not there is no reason to believe that life would be confined to Earth. God could easily do he same thing elsewhere and just not tell us about it.
    Cherish your children for who they are, not who you'd like them to be.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexPKeaton View Post
    It doesn't sound reasonable, it is reasonable. Whether you believe in a god or not there is no reason to believe that life would be confined to Earth. God could easily do he same thing elsewhere and just not tell us about it.
    It is reasonable based on what? You and others wishing it to be so?

    Be that as it may, something sounding reasonable is one thing; something being proven by evidence is another.

    That was my basic point.
    "Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed but rather evolved." - Francis Crick.

    "For since the creation of the world, God's invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." - Romans 1:20

    "It's one reason I hate reading what Tyke writes. It just annoys the hell out of me." - Big Pink Monkey

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