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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vin Lombardi View Post
    From my perspective, it's a simple matter of settled (and testable) science vs speculation. Before you jump the gun on a gotcha, hear me out.

    Science knows that if you want to move an object, it requires energy. In this specific case, we're moving a wind turbine with wind power. Science also knows that using energy takes it from one system to give to the other, and absent additional energy being added the giver system now has less energy. So wind power will be taken from the wind system to power the wind turbine. There is no additional energy being added - neither the sun nor the wind system will increase output because we are taking some out. Therefore, I believe their studies on the effect of wind power because it's rooted in provable, testable science.

    CO2 in the atmosphere and its effect on climate change is not settled science, it has not been proven, and modeling that attempts to do so is consistently wrong. Therefore I do not trust their estimates and categorically deny the scale of impact they predict absent any previous success, although I do not rule out a minuscule but non-zero impact.
    But as the CONCLUSIONS to both studies point out, they're both calling for further study, not abandoning wind power. They also can't explain why the results show COOLING in turbines over water.

    Which is of course why I keep harping with Walsh and guys like E-nut with my now getting fvcking stale 'DOES THE MODEL WORK?'

    You saying that one is science and one isn't is a faith based propsition btw.
    "the blade itself incites to violence." - Homer

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    "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - Kung fu Monkey

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vin Lombardi View Post
    I was absolutely being a dick in that, but only due to the tone you and FWFW were (still in his case) were taking. I felt that I was arguing that the sky wasn't really blue due to water molecules, but I kept being called a fool for not looking out my window and seeing the obvious blue sky.
    And again, I admitted from jump that the sailboat downwind from E-nuts has an issue. What I disagreed with was where he went from there. The studies you linked raise questions admittedly, but they're not saying 'hey, stay with coal.'
    "the blade itself incites to violence." - Homer

    --

    "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - Kung fu Monkey

  3. #213
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    And no one is suggesting STAYING with coal. It has, and will be a lesser part of our energy source as the years pass. You see this as a GROWING industry?
    I promise I won't do it again

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raid View Post
    And no one is suggesting STAYING with coal. It has, and will be a lesser part of our energy source as the years pass. You see this as a GROWING industry?
    So, you agree we should phase out old and inefficient coal power plants now?

    I thought you were saying they were fine as long as there were other types of pollution. I must have misinterpreted the list you posted.

    70 years after opening, the power plant north of Salt Lake City hasn’t yet retired. It is, depending on how you calculate it, the oldest in the nation. And it’s still running with the original boilers, steam turbines and fans to power the company’s smelter and crushing operations...

    “They’re not as efficient as a new coal plant, but it’s still economic for us to operate rather than purchase electricity from the local utility,”...

    The average coal plant in the United States is 42 years old, but the oldest — and least efficient — date from the 1940s and early 1950s. Many of them also lack the most modern pollution controls and contribute to poor air quality.

    The likelihood that plants like this one will shut down by 2030 at the latest was one key factor in the Environmental Protection Agency’s calculations about what limits to place on carbon emissions from existing coal plants. The closure of certain plants could bring the proposed statewide targets within easier reach.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...2d4_story.html

    So, the market clearly does not work if you discount health considerations (which you shouldn't. what good is money if you can't breathe air, or it gives you disease?).

    Rather than keeping open 70 year old plants who's fixed costs were paid off long ago, why not pay a few more cents a KWH for health and breathable air?
    I've got binders full of women
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  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raid View Post
    And no one is suggesting STAYING with coal. It has, and will be a lesser part of our energy source as the years pass. You see this as a GROWING industry?
    We already had a slow measured plan in place to phase out coal. Ohio slowed that process down further. Which is what we've been talking about since the thread started. Before we went on the big ol' tangent.
    "the blade itself incites to violence." - Homer

    --

    "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - Kung fu Monkey

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayClay View Post
    So, you agree we should phase out old and inefficient coal power plants now?

    I thought you were saying they were fine as long as there were other types of pollution. I must have misinterpreted the list you posted.
    Yes, you misinterpreted. I was suggesting that coal as a source of energy is and has been dropping through natural financial and political market/ demand/ technology. The Ohio decision is not some significant step backwards as suggested. And no, I do not think shutting them all down NOW is viable.

    I also suggested that the LACK of threads on the BIGGEST polluters in the US says a LOT about our members/posters regarding the subject of air pollution.Is this a personal issue with me on the subject or are or you in the belief that the Ohio decision is a catastrophe? [ it's the thread subject ]
    I promise I won't do it again

  7. #217
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    So don't burn a strawman, until you do it? (who is saying it's a 'catastrophe?' )
    "the blade itself incites to violence." - Homer

    --

    "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - Kung fu Monkey

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raid View Post
    Yes, you misinterpreted. I was suggesting that coal as a source of energy is and has been dropping through natural financial and political market/ demand/ technology.
    Apparently you didn't read the excerpts I posted from a very thorough article. Old, broken down, paid for plants are very cost efficient. They don't cost much, aren't worth much.

    Of course the people in the area pay when they breathe.

    “They’re not as efficient as a new coal plant, but it’s still economic for us to operate rather than purchase electricity from the local utility,”...
    Old, broken down stuff is cheaper. If you are depending on market forces, they'll close the new plants and keep open the old plants.

    Sometimes I wonder why I bother.
    I've got binders full of women
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  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raid View Post
    [/B]Is this a personal issue with me on the subject or are or you in the belief that the Ohio decision is a catastrophe? [ it's the thread subject ]
    I didn't say it's a catastrophe. the thread title is, a step backwards and that seems accurate.

    You and everyone that thinks whatever cancers and other diseases occurring right now are OK because the "market" will eventually come around.

    First, it won't as i said. Pollution is cheaper than efficiency, which costs money. secondly, if it was somehow going to take care of itself, that doesn't excuse poisoning people today.

    I have most definitely railed against all the types of pollution represented on your list. Unfortunately, it's the poisoning of people by companies like WR Grace that becomes so outrageous it makes headlines. I am not an investigative reporter with a budget.
    I've got binders full of women
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