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  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    First of all its complete opinion. Second of all, lets hear a response to my argument. I'm all ears.
    Of course its opinion - if it wasn't we wouldn't bother debating it. That is obvious, you don't spend time debating facts. I mean come on Nas, what a waste of a sentence by you.

    Second, as to a response to your argument, I can't even recall a good argument you made? You said "he clearly isn't the best" and "didn't deserve to be in the conversation" those aren't arguments they are statements. Then you tried to marginalize his dominance through the refuted argument that "he wouldn't have been so awesome if he didn't have better football skills than everyone else". You made an allusion to another argument about "Brown not blocking" as justification for him not being in the conversation as the best ever. I don't think that any of us can effectively judge whether or not this is an factual statement or not, we haven't really seen video of him missing blocking assignments. I am not willing to take Brown's statements that he didn't block at face value, because Brown is an arrogant ass. He wants to be remembered not only as a great runner but as a man who did things his own way, and so he makes those "don't tied a race horse to a milk wagon" comments. I seriously doubt that on plays where he was supposed to block that he just stood their with his thumb up his ass.

    As to my argument, I could make the same argument that rjohmit has already made, but instead I will be lazy and just link to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by rjohmit View Post
    Jim Brown won the league MVP 4 times in 9 seasons
    He led the league in rushing yardage in 8 of his 9 seasons
    He led the league in rushing TDs in 5 seasons of his 9 seasons
    He's still the career leader in rushing yards per game (104.3), scrimmage yards per game (125.52), and TDs per game (1.068)
    He's still the career leader in games with 3+ TDs (14) and 4+ TDs (6)
    He's 9th on the career rushing yardage list despite playing only 9 seasons of only 12 / 14 games
    He's 5th on the career rushing TD list
    He's 10th on the career total TDs list (which includes 5 WRs)
    He was the first to rush for 1500+ yards (in 12 games)
    He was the first to crack 2000 yards from scrimmage (in 14 games)...1863 rushing + 268 receiving
    edit: I will add some other aspects. Jim Brown completely dominated his era (see above); his stats still hold up today (still 9th on the all time rushing list, has the higher rush yards per game average, etc.); he created a massive legacy as a result of retiring at the young age of 29 when he was the best in the game; and when he retired he held basically every rushing record.
    Last edited by Fandango; 03-09-2014 at 02:57 PM.
    "We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be."
    -Kurt Vonnegut "Mother Night"

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fandango View Post
    Of course its opinion - if it wasn't we wouldn't bother debating it. That is obvious, you don't spend time debating facts. I mean come on Nas, what a waste of a sentence by you.

    Second, as to a response to your argument, I can't even recall a good argument you made? You said "he clearly isn't the best" and "didn't deserve to be in the conversation" those aren't arguments they are statements. Then you tried to marginalize his dominance through the refuted argument that "he wouldn't have been so awesome if he didn't have better football skills than everyone else". You made an allusion to another argument about "Brown not blocking" as justification for him not being in the conversation as the best ever. I don't think that any of us can effectively judge whether or not this is an factual statement or not, we haven't really seen video of him missing blocking assignments. I am not willing to take Brown's statements that he didn't block at face value, because Brown is an arrogant ass. He wants to be remembered not only as a great runner but as a man who did things his own way, and so he makes those "don't tied a race horse to a milk wagon" comments. I seriously doubt that on plays where he was supposed to block that he just stood their with his thumb up his ass.

    As to my argument, I could make the same argument that rjohmit has already made, but instead I will be lazy and just link to it.



    edit: I will add some other aspects. Jim Brown completely dominated his era (see above); his stats still hold up today (still 9th on the all time rushing list, has the higher rush yards per game average, etc.); he created a massive legacy as a result of retiring at the young age of 29 when he was the best in the game; and when he retired he held basically every rushing record.
    Its pretty widely known that he refused to block, ever. I think its past conjecture. THat was the basis of my argument. I didn't say he wasn't an all time great. I didn't say he couldn't play today. I didn't even discount his era(I simply said that wasn't the end all, be all in this conversation).

    Like I said, he's in the conversation, if he's the Randy Moss of the conversation. He cannot win though. I don't really need to see his stats again because I fully acknowledge them.
    "Governing doesn’t disappear when government shrinks; instead corporations come to govern your life — like HMO’s, oil companies, drug companies, agribusiness, and so on, with accountability only to maximizing profit, not to public needs." - George Lakoff

  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    I didn't say he wasn't an all time great...

    Like I said, he's in the conversation...
    But you in fact did say those very things...that is why we have been debating this I thought. You said "he is CERTAINLY not the best ever" and "really didn't belong in the conversation" - if you don't believe those things than you shouldn't have written them. If you have changed your mind because of this discussion that is great, it appears that you have admitted you were wrong.
    "We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be."
    -Kurt Vonnegut "Mother Night"

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fandango View Post
    But you in fact did say those very things...that is why we have been debating this I thought. You said "he is CERTAINLY not the best ever" and "really didn't belong in the conversation" - if you don't believe those things than you shouldn't have written them. If you have changed your mind because of this discussion that is great, it appears that you have admitted you were wrong.
    The first is quite true still, I amended the second one in response to the Randy Moss comment, and said it twice for that matter.

    I asked a simple question in comparing someone like Payton to Brown that you still haven't answered.
    "Governing doesn’t disappear when government shrinks; instead corporations come to govern your life — like HMO’s, oil companies, drug companies, agribusiness, and so on, with accountability only to maximizing profit, not to public needs." - George Lakoff

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    I asked a simple question in comparing someone like Payton to Brown that you still haven't answered.
    I didn't really think there was much to answer it in, but oh well what the heck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    I think I gave a pretty strong reason. I mean, how much different would you grade Payton and Brown as pure runners? Does Brown really blow him out by so much to you that the blocking doesn't make up the difference and then some? I can't see that argument myself. You can pick someone besides Payton if you prefer, but the point remains.
    I already addressed the supposed blocking deficiencies in regard to Brown before. But as runners go I believe Jim Brown to be superior. He produced more yards per rush, more yards per game, and scored at a greater rate. The sources about these two seem to suggest that Brown both ran with more power and was comparatively faster. I also think that Brown was comparatively more dominant in his era.

    But it isn't like there is huge difference between these guys, they are both two of the top few backs ever to play the game I just give the edge to Brown. So when I say these things about Brown it shouldn't be taken as a slight against Payton.
    "We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be."
    -Kurt Vonnegut "Mother Night"

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