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Thread: Selling Hope

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vin Lombardi View Post
    JCD, how can you even bring up downfield completion rates with a straight face knowing the crud we've had trying (and failing horribly) to get open or run a decent route.
    Because I didn't. DV was pimping his QB rating, I was saying it was an illusion based on playing exceedingly safe plays. When asked to do more, Ponder struggled badly.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by -20 at the Met View Post
    Now you're just being obtuse. Fine, he doesn't have a strong arm. Never will. Dump him now and install Webb, who does have a strong arm. Good luck with that

    You can't win without a rocket. Tell joe Montana to give his rings back.

    Sheesh.
    Now you are just being an melodramatic.

    Arm strength is not everything, but it does determine what plays you can run. We will have a limited playbook with Ponder at QB. Ponder is at least a decent back-up, Webb isn't an NFL caliber QB so doesn't even factor into the equation.

    Montana didn't have a big arm either. But he also was on a team built specifically for the short game. We could do the same and build an offense around Ponder. The game has evolved considerably since the 80's, but who knows. Maybe a pure WCO will still be effective. Myself? I prefer to accentuate Peterson instead of Ponder and get a QB that will open up running lanes better.
    Last edited by JCD; 05-11-2013 at 08:26 PM.

  3. #63
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    Since so many of you are still high on Ponder, what would convince you that he is not good enough to take us to a SuperBowl?

    While you have guys like Gannon and Schaub who take time to develop, you also have QBs like Boller and Losman who never become more than back-ups. How many seasons do you give a QB before moving on?

    To be clear, I do think Ponder may become an adequate NFL QB. My biggest knock is that even if he does pan out, his game is limited to a very specific offense. One that does not mesh well with a power running game. Musgrave may be a latent genius and create the first power running / WCO hybrid, but I am very skeptical of that.

    There is nothing that can be done for the 2013 season. Have to wait another year.
    Last edited by JCD; 05-11-2013 at 11:06 PM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCD View Post
    Since so many of you are still high on Ponder, what would convince you that he is not good enough to take us to a SuperBowl?

    While you have guys like Gannon and Schaub who take time to develop, you also have QBs like Boller and Losman who never become more than back-ups. How many seasons do you give a QB before moving on?

    To be clear, I do think Ponder may become an adequate NFL QB. My biggest knock is that even if he does pan out, his game is limited to a very specific offense. One that does not mesh well with a power running game. Musgrave may be a latent genius and create the first power running / WCO hybrid, but I am very skeptical of that.

    Ponder will be under center for this season, but I hope this is the last. IIRC, Freeman is a FA after this year, make him an off-season priority.
    I think that by "high on Ponder", you are mostly meaning not as down on him as you are. I think that you described his ceiling as a poor man's Garcia and I think that he can equal Garcia (which may not equal Pro Bowls with some of the young studs in competition). And do you mean lead us to a Super Bowl or get us there? I don't think that he can carry the team on his shoulders, but he's good enough to get us there when Adrian's on.

    I don't see Freeman as much of an upgrade on Ponder. Either Freeman will return to earlier form and the Bucs won't let him go or not and we'll be trading developmental QBs. If Ponder doesn't play well this season, I think that we should be looking for somebody to replace him, but I don't expect any free agents (or roster cuts) to be able to do the job better. Kolb (assuming that EJ can push him out)? T-Jack (same scenario)? Henne? Hasselbeck? Skelton? Maybe a trade for Foles?

  5. #65
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    If I had to bet, I would take the under that Ponder every makes it as a good QB, maybe even as an adequate starter. But I think the "arm strength" questions have gotten WAAAYYYYY overblown in this thread. Is his arm good enough to overcome other shortcomings? Probbaly not, but it is good enough to make any throws needed and is not what will determine if he makes it or not. I think the best comp for him is probably Hasselback.

  6. #66
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    One thing that I like about grabbing Patterson and not targeting Hopkins (who I love as a receiver) is that Patterson isn't likely to give Ponder much of an instant edge. I think that Hopkins would be an instant threat for Ponder to take advantage of because( in my very unprofessional opinion), he's a good route runner that can easily fit in. Patterson is more likely to make a big impact a couple seasons down - with or without Ponder.

    There were other, more polished, receivers that the Vikes could've gone after early, but they didn't make giving Ponder immediate help a big emphasis. Patterson does give Ponder immediate help, but it sounds like his impact is more likely to come a few years down the road - after we've (hopefully) decided Ponder is the answer or not.

  7. #67
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    Ponder v. Montana comparison.

    Let's assume they have similar arms. (I don't, since Montana had a quicker release, but let's assume.)

    Now let's compare their other skills: composure, reading defenses, decisiveness, and accuracy.

    Ponder loses INCREDIBLY on all other factors. His only edge is pure foot speed, which almost hurts him since he runs like a scared bunny rabbit the first time he senses trouble.

    It is NOT just arm strength. It is the whole mental package where Ponder has shown so many problems and, at age 26, seems quite unlikely to change.

    However, I would be delighted to be wrong and see him suddenly blossom. And I am on board giving his another year. But this is the last year for Ponder. If he has another repeat, we need to move on. He can stay as a backup is necessary.

    Go11

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Soapdish View Post
    I think that by "high on Ponder", you are mostly meaning not as down on him as you are. I think that you described his ceiling as a poor man's Garcia and I think that he can equal Garcia (which may not equal Pro Bowls with some of the young studs in competition). And do you mean lead us to a Super Bowl or get us there? I don't think that he can carry the team on his shoulders, but he's good enough to get us there when Adrian's on.

    I don't see Freeman as much of an upgrade on Ponder. Either Freeman will return to earlier form and the Bucs won't let him go or not and we'll be trading developmental QBs. If Ponder doesn't play well this season, I think that we should be looking for somebody to replace him, but I don't expect any free agents (or roster cuts) to be able to do the job better. Kolb (assuming that EJ can push him out)? T-Jack (same scenario)? Henne? Hasselbeck? Skelton? Maybe a trade for Foles?
    You have more confidence in Ponder than I. I think it is very easy to upgrade on Ponder, Freeman has already shown far more than Ponder ever has. Yes, he has issues, but they pale in comparison.

    Best way I can sum it up is that few QBs have ever been as inept as Ponder's 7-game stretch last year from weeks 7 to 14 (lone good game was against Detroit). Ponder has more games in his career of that ilk than he does where he inspires confidence. Not even Jackson had lows that bad (to be fair, he never had highs either). Couple that poor play to limited upside and I don't see the point wasting time hoping and praying Ponder emerges as an average QB. Put it this way, Ponder's QB rating during that span was in Jamarcus Russell / Spergon Wynn territory. It is one thing to have a bad game, Ponder had a bad half season. I truly believe the only thing that saved his starting job was that he was drafted so high. Had Ponder been a 2nd or 3rd round pick instead of a top-12, his play would get him benched and we would no longer entertain him as a QB of the future.

    We are stuck with Ponder for another year. I really hope he goes out and makes me look like an idiot for doubting him. My worst fear is that he doesn't tank or shine, but waffles in the middle so draw out the decision for yet another season.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCD View Post
    As has been asked many times, how do better WRs make a QB's arm stronger?
    I don't know, but Green and company make Dalton's wet noodle look pretty good.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Platz View Post
    I don't know, but Green and company make Dalton's wet noodle look pretty good.
    Winning makes everyone's arm stronger.

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