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  1. #256
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    Btw, its pure idiocy to say " soldiers fire whenever they feel danger"

    Let me give you some real talk. The MINUTE you push off from camp, you feel like your in danger, everyone is armed, everyone wears the same thing and NOTHING prepares you for it. Danger? When you braceyourself everytime a beat up corrola drives by the opposite side of the road, when kids run toward your convoy after you blow up munitions when unmarked cars drive up to your lead vehicle when random guys holding aks are everywhere lets see you go through it and fire when you feel "endangered".

    We had a guy hoarding electronic parts in one of the bunkers who refused to come out, did the mps go in guns blazing and shoot the guy? No, they went in put him in cuffs and then barred him from the base.

    The idea of firing whenever you are feeling indangered is lunacy.
    "Girl was bout as nutty as squirel $h!t"- Uncle ruckas.

  2. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyerhawk View Post
    That is the Rules of Engagement in the areas YOU were in. Are you familiar with the term Rules of Engagement? I would hope so since it something that you deal with in any deployment or any major training exercise.

    Different areas have different rules. Different situations have different rules.

    I don't care what your alleged military experience is. I care about what you say here because that is the only thing that is tangible.

    And you should try to read what other people actually say a bit more. So far your reading comprehension has been severely lacking in just about any thread involving guns or cops.
    No, AN ROE is a command order. There is a difference between supressive tactics or defensive firing, and offensive movement.

    Deffensive or suppressive tactics are used IN RESPONSE TO GUN FIRE OR EXPLOSIVES ONLY

    An active ROE or MO, is mission specific.


    However, the CENTCOM SO (Standing engagment order) then, now and will forever be fire ONLY when fired on. Point blank and period end of discussion.
    "Girl was bout as nutty as squirel $h!t"- Uncle ruckas.

  3. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFspeedboy View Post
    Btw, its pure idiocy to say " soldiers fire whenever they feel danger"

    Let me give you some real talk. The MINUTE you push off from camp, you feel like your in danger, everyone is armed, everyone wears the same thing and NOTHING prepares you for it. Danger? When you braceyourself everytime a beat up corrola drives by the opposite side of the road, when kids run toward your convoy after you blow up munitions when unmarked cars drive up to your lead vehicle when random guys holding aks are everywhere lets see you go through it and fire when you feel "endangered".

    We had a guy hoarding electronic parts in one of the bunkers who refused to come out, did the mps go in guns blazing and shoot the guy? No, they went in put him in cuffs and then barred him from the base.

    The idea of firing whenever you are feeling indangered is lunacy.
    And I didn't say that. Good job with the reading comprehension again.
    The trouble with the world today is the intelligent people are full of doubt and the dumb people are full of confidence - Charles Bukowski

  4. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFspeedboy View Post
    An active ROE or MO, is mission specific.
    Well glad to see you admit that.
    The trouble with the world today is the intelligent people are full of doubt and the dumb people are full of confidence - Charles Bukowski

  5. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyerhawk View Post
    Well glad to see you admit that.
    ???? ROE doesnt define everyday encounters. General orders, and STANDING ORDERS do. As i stated, CENTCOMS standing order is DO NOT FIRE, UNLESS FIRED UPON. I promise you this is rock solid 100% fact.

    Now in some cases i was runnin hurc night missions with the air force SF guys with the hollywood guard, near sharona i think. They had a ROE Of anyone who charges the wire near the air feild gets a round in warning, and then one round centermass. As a medic i was chillin on the ramp waiting to drop off supplies for the spring offensive. At no time was i personally allowed to fire on those missions at all.

    But the GO outrules all others, so even though i was given a ROE of medical only, of i was fired on directly i had the right to return fire.

    Now other missions had more roe's but the SO or GO's from centcom dont change.
    "Girl was bout as nutty as squirel $h!t"- Uncle ruckas.

  6. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatsFan2003 View Post
    Come on. Police often have to make split second life and death decisions.
    Sure, but that shouldn't lower the standards for deploying lethal force.

    Also bear in mind that police have a lot of training to help prepare them for these situations. Even though they are more likely to find themselves in these kinds of situations, they should respond to them better than your average person.
    A Drinking Team with a Cycling Problem

  7. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatsFan2003 View Post
    That's not really true. They probably have more leeway then the Police.
    Agreed, because 'battlefield / war zone'.

    Soldiers are also taught to 'soldier'. Soldiers aren't all taught 'to police'.
    A Drinking Team with a Cycling Problem

  8. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFspeedboy View Post
    Wrong!

    The guy who did my push training was taken out of the AOR while they investigated him FIRING A WARNING SHOT. it didnt even hit anyone!

    Not one convoy member opens up without command approval. It aint like the movies where you just see a bad guy and start sprayin' you get authorization to engage, and more times they none your just gonna be told to stand down.

    Cases where guys open up and kill innocent people are prosocuted HEAVILY.
    I know of case in Iraq during a convy when a vehicle mounted automatic grenade laucher was accidentally fired. The round exploded and the convoy believed they were taking fire from a nearby home. They opened fire on the home and unfortuantely killed an entire family.

    I'm not going to give more specific details than that.

    There was no trial or intestigations. It was just simply understood to have been an accident in a war zone and everyone involved was devastated.

    Soldiers do have to abide by international laws regarind the Geneva conventions, but they do have more leeway in deploying their weapons than cops should.
    A Drinking Team with a Cycling Problem

  9. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cryin Lion View Post
    Sure, but that shouldn't lower the standards for deploying lethal force.

    Also bear in mind that police have a lot of training to help prepare them for these situations. Even though they are more likely to find themselves in these kinds of situations, they should respond to them better than your average person.
    I'm thinking you're overestimating how often regular folks end up in 'situations.' Also underestimating the cowardice of regular folks. 'Hey, go into that home where the high/drunk guy is brandishing a gun and threatening his wife.' Uh, gee, got somewhere to be... wish I could help. Good luck!
    "the blade itself incites to violence." - Homer

    --

    "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - Kung fu Monkey

  10. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cryin Lion View Post
    I know of case in Iraq during a convy when a vehicle mounted automatic grenade laucher was accidentally fired. The round exploded and the convoy believed they were taking fire from a nearby home. They opened fire on the home and unfortuantely killed an entire family.

    I'm not going to give more specific details than that.

    There was no trial or intestigations. It was just simply understood to have been an accident in a war zone and everyone involved was devastated.

    Soldiers do have to abide by international laws regarind the Geneva conventions, but they do have more leeway in deploying their weapons than cops should.
    I can remember at least two incidents where US military personell killed Canadian troops through error or negligence, and didn't serve one day in the hoosegow. We have a local case of a Canuck soldier who was court-martialed for supervising an explosives drill that killed several soldiers. He wasn't qualified to run that drill, but there was no-one else on scene.

    He was found guilty, but served no jail time, in large part because he's a good person, and being a felon would wreck his career as a firefighter, plus end the volunteer work he does with kids.

    Soldiers get extra rope all the time.
    "the blade itself incites to violence." - Homer

    --

    "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - Kung fu Monkey

  11. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cryin Lion View Post
    Agreed, because 'battlefield / war zone'.

    Soldiers are also taught to 'soldier'. Soldiers aren't all taught 'to police'.
    Yes. I understand the ROE particularly in places like IRAQ and Afghanistan were to limit innocent killings for obvious reasons (Hearts and Minds) but it's just too easy to make mistakes when people are shooting at you A LOT. Or even the threat is there all the time.

    I don't know what the figures are in IRAQ and Afghanistan are for innocent people killed by Western Troops in both these wars but I would have to guess with some confidence that the numbers are quite high.

    So something is likely out of wack here.

    Which would say to me that either the ROE are flawed OR more likely it's an extremely hard goal to put into action no matter how good those ROE's are.
    Last edited by PatsFan2003; 02-21-2013 at 05:06 PM.

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