Accountability for intelligence officers

[flyerhawk]

If you commit a crime on Italian soil you are subject to Italian law. As covert operatives you do not enjoy ANY diplomatic immunity. Regardless of whether the action is a crime under American law.

The Israelis that nabbed Eichmann were certainly violating Argentinian law when they grabbed him and could have been thrown in jail for a long time for their actions. They felt it was worth the risks.

As for the Italian intelligence chief, Italy has some really bizarre laws regarding criminal culpability.

As for the cleric, the term jihad has lost all meaning, if it ever had one to begin with. If the cleric is inciting violence, then I don't have a whole heck of a lot of pity for him.

[KickSave]

A handful of child custody cases not withstanding, DutchBird has it exactly right. The US has a long standing track record of doing whatever it wants, and at the same time denying any other nation the right and ability to do similar things when they have the desire to.

One perfect example: The raid on Bin Laden compound. No permission asked for or given. Our military landed on foreign soil, attacked a building, killed multiple people inside the house, some armed some not, then took the body and a giant pile of gear, PCs, files, etc. Probably not but a handful of Americans saw anything wrong with that, and in fact most Americans cheered loudly because after all, it was to get Bin Laden, who we all felt was guilty of mass murder (even though no trial was ever held).

Now imagine that you are a Pakistani citizen, not part of any militia, not aligned with or supporting Al Queda or the Taliban in any way, just a shopkeeper or a farmer or cobbler. One day a drone strike kills your family of 4 while its on the way home from the market with the weeks groceries. In your mind, the person who piloted that drone is Mohammed Atta to you, and the person who gave the ultimate authorization (Bush or Obama) is Bin Laden to you, and everyone in between that participates is a member of Al Queda to you. So imagine the results if your Pakistani intelligence were to sneak into some condo in Fairfax VA and ambush and kill that drone pilot, and drop a big ole bomb on the White House and take out Obama. Imagine our collective outrage and how we would react to such a breach of our sovereignty?

The acts are virtually the same to the average citizen of each respective country. But we Americans simply accept what our govt does on our behalf regardless of any semblance of it being within laws that the international community almost universally abides by. We get away with it because we are a 500 lb gorilla that doesn't give a $hit. Not because its right. This kidnapping/extradition example in the OP is just one of a thousand, one of ten thousand.

[flyerhawk]

All nations do whatever they can get away with.

[KickSave]

All nations do whatever they can get away with.

Might makes right... Or so I've heard.

I'm not quite sure I would say "ALL nations" either, but I get your point. That said wasn't sure if yours was a defense or merely an observation.

[flyerhawk]

Might makes right... Or so I've heard.

I'm not quite sure I would say "ALL nations" either, but I get your point. That said wasn't sure if yours was a defense or merely an observation.

More observation of reality than a defense. I personally believe we need a major overhaul of our foreign policy posture primarily because I believe it is counter-productive.

Using morality as an argument against foreign policy actions is, at best, nebulous reasoning.

[LGM]

More observation of reality than a defense. I personally believe we need a major overhaul of our foreign policy posture primarily because I believe it is counter-productive.

Using morality as an argument against foreign policy actions is, at best, nebulous reasoning.

Yup. I didnt mean to come across as being necessarily supportive of the actions listed, but realistically looking at it as "everyone is doing it", and my "one nation's kidnapping is another nation's extradition.

Anyway, it is what it is.

[AndromedaPatFan]

A handful of child custody cases not withstanding, DutchBird has it exactly right. The US has a long standing track record of doing whatever it wants, and at the same time denying any other nation the right and ability to do similar things when they have the desire to.

One perfect example: The raid on Bin Laden compound. No permission asked for or given. Our military landed on foreign soil, attacked a building, killed multiple people inside the house, some armed some not, then took the body and a giant pile of gear, PCs, files, etc. Probably not but a handful of Americans saw anything wrong with that, and in fact most Americans cheered loudly because after all, it was to get Bin Laden, who we all felt was guilty of mass murder (even though no trial was ever held).

Now imagine that you are a Pakistani citizen, not part of any militia, not aligned with or supporting Al Queda or the Taliban in any way, just a shopkeeper or a farmer or cobbler. One day a drone strike kills your family of 4 while its on the way home from the market with the weeks groceries. In your mind, the person who piloted that drone is Mohammed Atta to you, and the person who gave the ultimate authorization (Bush or Obama) is Bin Laden to you, and everyone in between that participates is a member of Al Queda to you. So imagine the results if your Pakistani intelligence were to sneak into some condo in Fairfax VA and ambush and kill that drone pilot, and drop a big ole bomb on the White House and take out Obama. Imagine our collective outrage and how we would react to such a breach of our sovereignty?

The acts are virtually the same to the average citizen of each respective country. But we Americans simply accept what our govt does on our behalf regardless of any semblance of it being within laws that the international community almost universally abides by. We get away with it because we are a 500 lb gorilla that doesn't give a $hit. Not because its right. This kidnapping/extradition example in the OP is just one of a thousand, one of ten thousand.

Especially since the number of civilians we've killed via drone strikes is in the 100s.