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  1. #46
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    Because our society expects that a high school diploma means something other than a child managed to show up a bare minimum number of days for 13 years. Employers, Colleges, and Universities expect that a high school diploma means someone has achieved at least a minimum level of proficiency in basic areas.

    Detroit Public Schools has or had mandatory advancement. If you showed up you moved to the next grade regardless of grades. Do that for 13 years and you received a diploma. The state of Michigan responded by putting in place a standardized test called the MEAP. If a student didn't pass the MEAP they didn't get a state certification on their diploma. In more recent years similar to NCLB, there have been attempts to tie funding to success rates on the MEAP as well. This was done in part because there was nothing in place actually holding local school districts accountable for the tax dollars they were receiving.

    People want accountability because invest billions of dollars a year in educating children. Almost all education funding is done at a state level now. Going back 100+ years we've had standard curriculum expectations of public schools, usually set at at a state level or at minimum there were recommended state guidelines. You may pay local property taxes, but in most states that money actually goes to the state who in turn give the local school district a flat rate per child. Local communities usually aren't actually funding their own schools in reality anymore.
    Last edited by Dave; 02-05-2013 at 04:47 PM.
    The cake is a lie. I'm pretty sure the numbers in the pie chart are made up too.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Payton34 View Post
    LAZY? Geezus, well then let me just say that you have un-realistic expectations.... Yes, every teacher should just say, "You know what? F**k MY family... I'm going to go parent every failing student I have because its not fair that their parents suck!!!".... Really dude?

    Funny, again, that you choose to hold up "Stand By Me" as your ultimate measuring stick of what you think a school should be.... Do you happen to recall a scene where the principal ALSO kicks out every useless student in the school? Nah, you probably forgot about that because it flies in the face of your point I suppose? Well schools today aren't allowed to do that for the most part. These kids that serve as nothing but a distraction reside in our schools and make life extraordinarily difficult for teachers AND their fellow students.... I'm sure that you could get teachers to agree to some form of standard evals if you tell them that you're going to start by expelling all of the crappy kids....

    Wonder why Mr. Clark didn't visit the parents of all those kids and tell them what they were doing wrong and show some actual initiative instead of just kicking them all out of school? Musta been LAZY!!!!!

    1. No doing your job is in fact realistic, and the sad thing is teachers unions have blocked attempts to weed out lazy teachers and make good ones pay. If you cannot teach the way your job demands you too, then you should choose another profession.

    2. Yes teachers are lazy. Not all, but most. Anytime "i dont get paid to do that" id your mantra, aboyt things that ARE in your job description, than it displays laziness. Imo teaching should be 100 incentivized linked to test scores and graduation rates. And any teacher that fails in those areas could write a summary of events as to why they failed at their only job...

    3. "Lean on me" did have a scene where bad apples where thrown out, but as a kid in innercity schooled system i could tell you those kids dont make it past the 9th grade before the dropout. So that excuse os moot.


    All i hear is excuse after excuse why teachers suck. Who cares why your not doing your job, we care how you plan on fixing it, instead of soaking up tax payer dollars for a half assed job.
    "Girl was bout as nutty as squirel $h!t"- Uncle ruckas.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    You may pay local property taxes, but in most states that money actually goes to the state who in turn give the local school district a flat rate per child. Local communities usually aren't actually funding their own schools in reality anymore.
    The trouble with the world today is the intelligent people are full of doubt and the dumb people are full of confidence - Charles Bukowski

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForWhoForWhat? View Post
    Gates may mean well, but when it comes to education he does not know what he is talking about. But since he has $ people listen and do whatever he says just to get a piece of the pie, consequences be damned.
    FWFW, I'm sure you've posted this before, but can you provide a quick summary on what you believe to be the best method for teacher performance evaluation?
    A Drinking Team with a Cycling Problem

  5. #50
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    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by USAFspeedboy View Post
    Yes teachers are lazy. Not all, but most.
    At least you put your prejudices right out there, Speedy. Kudos on that.
    Although it is said that our faith concerns matters which are obscure, the reasons for embracing the faith are not obscure but on the contrary are clearer than any natural light.
    -Descartes

  6. #51
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    Half assed job... heh.

    Oh what I wouldn't pay to put speedy in front of 35 eighth graders for eight hours.
    "the blade itself incites to violence." - Homer

    --

    "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - Kung fu Monkey

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalgaryHawkFan View Post
    Half assed job... heh.

    Oh what I wouldn't pay to put speedy in front of 35 eighth graders for eight hours.
    Thats about the only thing left to say to him...

    To actually DEMAND that teachers must abandon their own lives and work 24/7 to hunt down and "save" kids and such is so far gone that I cannot have a reasonable discussion with him...

    "Most bad kids have dropped out by the 9th grade."? Speedy obviously doesn't know what NCLB stands for, did, or anything regarding today's education system....
    "Yeah, everything that guy just said is Bullsh!t..... Thank you.." -Vincent LaGuardia Gambini-

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFspeedboy View Post




    1. No doing your job is in fact realistic, and the sad thing is teachers unions have blocked attempts to weed out lazy teachers and make good ones pay. If you cannot teach the way your job demands you too, then you should choose another profession.
    "Teach the way your job demands you to..." ? What does chasing kids down outside of school have to do with teaching? Why don't we start there....

    Quote Originally Posted by USAF
    2. Yes teachers are lazy. Not all, but most. Anytime "i dont get paid to do that" id your mantra, aboyt things that ARE in your job description, than it displays laziness. Imo teaching should be 100 incentivized linked to test scores and graduation rates. And any teacher that fails in those areas could write a summary of events as to why they failed at their only job...
    You are asking.... nay, DEMANDING.... that teachers work 14 hour work weeks and put themselves in harms way both physically and legally.... No, not doing that is NOT LAZY... 100% linked to test scores? You aren't even thinking about this logically anymore (not sure you ever were)..

    Quote Originally Posted by USAF
    3. "Lean on me" did have a scene where bad apples where thrown out, but as a kid in innercity schooled system i could tell you those kids dont make it past the 9th grade before the dropout. So that excuse os moot.
    Not moot at all like I mentioned in previous post... What does "NCLB" mean? Say it with me: NO.... CHILD...... LEFT...... BEHIND...... No sir, your assessment is not based in today's reality.... And you dodged my question. Was the principal LAZY because he didn't go knock on all of these kids' doors and preach to their parents about getting them on the straight and narrow path?


    Quote Originally Posted by USAF
    All i hear is excuse after excuse why teachers suck. Who cares why your not doing your job, we care how you plan on fixing it, instead of soaking up tax payer dollars for a half assed job.
    No, what you're hearing are alternative reasons other than "Teachers suck!!!" as to why our educational system might appear to be failing some kids.... YOU are making the narrative all about it ALL being about the quality of teachers...
    "Yeah, everything that guy just said is Bullsh!t..... Thank you.." -Vincent LaGuardia Gambini-

  9. #54
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    Look, if the Hogwarts teachers can wave magic wands, surely you slackers can too. Fix our kids!
    "the blade itself incites to violence." - Homer

    --

    "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - Kung fu Monkey

  10. #55
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    The focus on teachers is so misguided that it's hard to know where to begin with the people that hold that assumption.

  11. #56
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    Still notice, no-one comments on what teachers are doing to stop their failures... I guess as long as the paychecks are comming, who cares if the kids they "teach" actually learn anything.

    Smh... And we wonder why college score are dropping across the board...
    "Girl was bout as nutty as squirel $h!t"- Uncle ruckas.

  12. #57
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by USAFspeedboy View Post
    Still notice, no-one comments on what teachers are doing to stop their failures... I guess as long as the paychecks are comming...
    Don't forget about the mojitos... I know I need a couple of stiff drinks in the morning to get me through the drudgery of pretending to teach kids.
    Although it is said that our faith concerns matters which are obscure, the reasons for embracing the faith are not obscure but on the contrary are clearer than any natural light.
    -Descartes

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFspeedboy View Post
    Long story short, teachers in my youth, would call parents, make house visits, call social services if needed to get a kid to learn. Seems these days "teacher" is a title, and not much a job descriptive word.
    I'd just like to point out that this isn't, at all, my experience with my kids (who are in various stages of elementary).

    I think you'll find that it varies mightily from district to disctrict.

    Good districts are likely to unanimously share these traits:

    1. Support of the parents
    2. Administration that is competant and involved
    3. Cash
    4. Quality Teachers

    I think it probably flows in that order too.

    Parents: If you don't have parents that care and are directly involved in keeping their children in school, on task, and who voluteer to support as needed (teacher helpers, chaperones for trips, volunteering for special events, fund raising, etc...) then nothing else is going to work. If the parent isn't the most concerned person in the world about their childs education then they are failing as parents.

    For example, I think parents are, far and wide, the primary problem with the Detroit Public School system. In Michigan everyone pays taxes toward public education and that money is divided up evenly among all students and distributed to the public schools (or private schools via vouchers, I suppose). The only criteria the schools have to meet to get that money is 'Making sure 75% of your students are in school on the days we do the annual state attendence check.' and without fail DPS loses a portion of that money every year because more than 1 in 4 parents can't be bothered to make sure their kid gets on the bus or gets dropped off or walked to school. If they aren't getting their kids to school you know damn well they aren't checking their bags for homework when they get home, or reading a book with them now and then.

    A former HS classmate of mine posted on facebook at she, being a teacher in Detroit, had been sitting in her room for two hours during parent-teacher conferences and not one parent stopped by to talk with her about their kid. Not even a friend of the parent or neighbor or relative stopped by to cover for the parent (who maybe had to work). Unforgivable.

    50 miles away in our disctict parents are involved. Every day kids fill out a daily planner that enumerates what lessons they learned that day as well as what homework they have and when it's due. The teacher reviews and signs it at the end of the day and sends it home. Each night the parents review it, see to the homework, and initial the page so the teacher knows it made it to the parents. For the middle schoolers they've even added an online mechanism that allows parents to see an current progress report on their kids. I check it every week to make sure we aren't missing assignments and get an idea what areas we need to put extra time into.

    I communicate with each of my kids teachers at least once a month via email or face to face. For the past two weeks I've been battling with my older kids band teacher and principal (5th grade) to get her transferred to a different instrument because she hates the one she started out with. Phone conversations, emails, and just today I requested a sit-down with both of them. I have no doubt they'll agree to meet me by the end of the week.

    You have to be your childs advocate. If most parents are advocates for their kids you probably aren't going to have a bad school district.

    Administration: You need people that care, have a vision, know how to make the most of their resources, and also know how to motivate (manage) their staff. Every school district can suffer from cash crunches but a good administrator can shrink the budge while minmizing impact to the product.

    Again, Detroit... they've lacked this as well. There are some popular urban spelunking web sites that have documented the Detroit Public School Book Depository.

    http://detroiturbex.com/content/down...oks/index.html

    It used to be a place where DPS stored their surplus supplies (books, crayons, papper, etc...) but there was a fire in 1987 in the building and it was abandoned thereafter. For reasons of 'bad managment' the good supplies were never removed and millions of dollars in resources were left to rot.

    Conversely, the principal at my kids elemantary is brilliant. She plans regular activities for the students after school (skating nights, movie nights, activity nights, scavanger hunts, etc...) She seems to have a great repore with her teachers. She knows every student by name and knows which parents to which they belong. The principal at the middle school seems equally competent He and I had a 20 min conversation last week about my daughters band experience and he was very knowledgable regarding national statistics on how band participation is links to all sorts of positive achievements later in life.

    Cash: Not much to say on this. If you don't have cash you aren't going to have modern facilities and you won't be able to lure top talent.

    Teachers: You need motivated teachers with a willingness to communicate to and work with parents.

    My experience is that if the Parents and Admin are doing their jobs you probably won't find bad teachers lasting very long, or at the very least everyone will know who they are provided the union is able to protect their job. Almost all of my problems with my kids teachers were a result of poor communication, quickly resolved after a conference.

    If you don't have parent, admin, and cash covered your district will likely only have a few of those 'difference maker' type teachers (See Stand And Deliver)

    In our district the teachers far and wide are better than those I had in elementary and I only live 1 district away from where I grew up. Everything about the schools is better than what I knew and my district was pretty good back then (they still are, actually)
    Last edited by The Cryin Lion; 02-05-2013 at 06:50 PM.
    A Drinking Team with a Cycling Problem

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFspeedboy View Post
    Still notice, no-one comments on what teachers are doing to stop their failures... I guess as long as the paychecks are comming, who cares if the kids they "teach" actually learn anything.

    Smh... And we wonder why college score are dropping across the board...
    Well God knows your English teachers should be lined up against a wall and shot...
    "the blade itself incites to violence." - Homer

    --

    "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - Kung fu Monkey

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gmaniac View Post
    Don't forget about the mojitos... I know I need a couple of stiff drinks in the morning to get me through the drudgery of pretending to teach kids.
    Where is Raider Bill these days?
    "the blade itself incites to violence." - Homer

    --

    "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - Kung fu Monkey

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