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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raid View Post
    Any kind of measurement that can be even remotely tethered to a teachers performance in inherently evil and must be stopped.
    Find a way to administer a fair system of evaluation and I'm sure teachers would be fine with it...
    "Yeah, everything that guy just said is Bullsh!t..... Thank you.." -Vincent LaGuardia Gambini-

  2. #32
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    Why can't they just do it the way they did it in the 90s and 80s? What was wrong with that?

    I had good teachers and bad teachers and learned a lot from all of them. Why are teachers getting such scrutiny when there is really no one right way to teach everybody? Who's designing the evaluation sheet and what the heck do they know anyway?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raid View Post
    Today's social media (including of course NST) has really put the spotlight on 'what/how' teachers think. I have two teacher contacts on my FB, and both whine about....friggin' "everything". I mean, it's really weird how they biiitch about having to work 50-60 hours a week...and such. One, my niece of all people, boasts (boasts?) that her 'summer off time is deserved because teachers work harder than the private sector. Like, huh?

    What I have seen over the recent years, again due to social media, is how DISCONNECTED the teaching profession is with the 'private' sector [ meaning the vast majority of what people do for a living, and how those companies and processes work, both in the service and product industries ]. Teachers don't want to know how for example how 'procurement processes' work - and how to address those issues, they would rather biiiitch about "I had to buy crayons for my class last night", the school board sucks..

    Many of us say politicians are out of touch. I believe teachers don't get it either. Do they need to? Well, it may help in rounding out their PERSONAL credentials and understanding where the information they are teaching may relate to most students future.
    But the private sector is SO in touch with what is going on in the schools? Is that your assertion here?
    "Yeah, everything that guy just said is Bullsh!t..... Thank you.." -Vincent LaGuardia Gambini-

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglesnut View Post
    Why can't they just do it the way they did it in the 90s and 80s? What was wrong with that?

    I had good teachers and bad teachers and learned a lot from all of them. Why are teachers getting such scrutiny when there is really no one right way to teach everybody? Who's designing the evaluation sheet and what the heck do they know?
    I actually agree with this, but at some point the "Fairness Police" decided that ALL kids need to be able to achieve a certain level and if not, that it must be the teacher's fault.... This line of thinking drove out a lot of the more creative teachers that you and I remember. They weren't "LAZY"... They just didn't want to be boxed in to "Teaching to the test"...
    "Yeah, everything that guy just said is Bullsh!t..... Thank you.." -Vincent LaGuardia Gambini-

  5. #35
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    Society is constantly changing. Unfortunately part of the problem is that not getting a college degree puts a major impediment. Even worse not getting a high school diploma(or GED) makes it nearly impossible to be a productive member of society. Thus the education system has become unwilling to deny students a high school degree.
    The trouble with the world today is the intelligent people are full of doubt and the dumb people are full of confidence - Charles Bukowski

  6. #36
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    My sister-in-law teachers at a Gates funded school. She is a hard worker who goes above and beyond and she does very well in her evaluations. Well enough they've offered her the opportunity to move into administration and curriculum development if she wants.

    Honestly, even teachers who are hard-working and have good intentions seem to be buying into this union line that any attempt to evaluate them based on hard numbers is a fraud. I'm sort of starting to pick that up from you FWFW. It's utter bull to think we can't come up with some non-subjective methods to at least do part of the performance evaluations for teachers, schools, and school districts. The Gates method includes in-class evaluations and other subjective measures where those doing the evaluations can take into account the demographics of the children being taught and other things. This seems like what teachers have been asking for, "Don't evaluate us just* on test scores, you don't understand the demographics of our kids."

    At the end of the day this is just like the NFLPA and HGH testing. Teachers unions know they can't oppose all metrics-based evaluation because it would reveal their real goals which the public would turn on. So they say they agree with it if done the right way, but piss and moan about every possible alternative offered and don't actually offer one themselves that would result in any actual accountability.
    Last edited by Dave; 02-05-2013 at 04:10 PM.
    The cake is a lie. I'm pretty sure the numbers in the pie chart are made up too.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglesnut View Post
    Why can't they just do it the way they did it in the 90s and 80s? What was wrong with that?

    I had good teachers and bad teachers and learned a lot from all of them. Why are teachers getting such scrutiny when there is really no one right way to teach everybody? Who's designing the evaluation sheet and what the heck do they know anyway?
    Because teachers get tenure after only a few years and are practically unfireable. Because State and Federal legislators who are being asked to shell out more and more money for education want to know there's actually some accountability taking place. They realized 15-20 years ago that kids were graduating high school in a lot of poor districts (if they weren't part of the 80% who dropped out) unable to read or do what's considered 3rd grade math. Yet those school administrators and teachers were supposedly doing great on all their evaluations. So 15-30 years ago states started putting in standard testing requirements. With no negative consequences, schools didn't care but kept saying they needed more money. So states started to attach funding to minimum levels of attainment on those test scores. And the day that happened the MEA and other teachers unions have been trying to convince the American public that 90% of teachers are dealing with children coming out of such poor home situations that expecting 70 or 80% of their students to finish the 3rd grade able to pass a test that measures what's considered a 3rd grade curriculum is unreasonable.

    Are there crappy schools and poor kids coming out of poverty? Sure, but you measure the delta. If a teacher gets kids who test at 10% readiness for a grade coming in and by the end of the year 15% of those kids have achieved, then that teacher just had a delta of 5% and did a decent job. You do in-class evaluations. You take into account other factors. At the end of the day though, you have to evaluate kids from school to school, from district to district, on some sort of standard scale. I've yet to see a teacher's union actually point at any sort of evaluation method that has a discrete measuring vehicle included as one they'd support.
    The cake is a lie. I'm pretty sure the numbers in the pie chart are made up too.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    My sister-in-law teachers at a Gates funded school. She is a hard worker who goes above and beyond and she does very well in her evaluations. Well enough they've offered her the opportunity to move into administration and curriculum development if she wants.

    Honestly, even teachers who are hard-working and have good intentions seem to be buying into this union line that any attempt to evaluate them based on hard numbers is a fraud. I'm sort of starting to pick that up from you FWFW. It's utter bull to think we can't come up with some non-subjective methods to at least do part of the performance evaluations for teachers, schools, and school districts. The Gates method includes in-class evaluations and other subjective measures where those doing the evaluations can take into account the demographics of the children being taught and other things. This seems like what teachers have been asking for, "Don't evaluate us just on test scores, you don't understand the demographics of our kids."

    At the end of the day this is just like the NFLPA and HGH testing. Teachers know they can't oppose all metrics-based evaluation, even if that's the real goal, so they say they agree with it if done the right way, but piss and moan about every possible alternative offered.
    I think the bolded clears a major hurdle for sure... For obvious reasons, student feedback simply wouldn't work.. Typical observation by administrators still needs to be a part of course, though they shouldn't announce when they are doing it...
    "Yeah, everything that guy just said is Bullsh!t..... Thank you.." -Vincent LaGuardia Gambini-

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Because teachers get tenure after only a few years and are practically unfireable. Because State and Federal legislators who are being asked to shell out more and more money for education want to know there's actually some accountability taking place. They realized 15-20 years ago that kids were graduating high school in a lot of poor districts (if they weren't part of the 80% who dropped out) unable to read or do what's considered 3rd grade math. Yet those school administrators and teachers were supposedly doing great on all their evaluations. So 15-30 years ago states started putting in standard testing requirements. With no negative consequences, schools didn't care but kept saying they needed more money. So states started to attach funding to minimum levels of attainment on those test scores. And the day that happened the MEA and other teachers unions have been trying to convince the American public that 90% of teachers are dealing with children coming out of such poor home situations that expecting 70 or 80% of their students to finish the 3rd grade able to pass a test that measures what's considered a 3rd grade curriculum is unreasonable.

    Are there crappy schools and poor kids coming out of poverty? Sure, but you measure the delta. If a teacher gets kids who test at 10% readiness for a grade coming in and by the end of the year 15% of those kids have achieved, then that teacher just had a delta of 5% and did a decent job. You do in-class evaluations. You take into account other factors. At the end of the day though, you have to evaluate kids from school to school, from district to district, on some sort of standard scale. I've yet to see a teacher's union actually point at any sort of evaluation method that has a discrete measuring vehicle included as one they'd support.
    First question.... How do you believe you get an accurrate benchmark to measure your "Delta"?
    "Yeah, everything that guy just said is Bullsh!t..... Thank you.." -Vincent LaGuardia Gambini-

  10. #40
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    At the end of the day this is just like the NFLPA and HGH testing.
    I kinda get the point you are making but this isn't really fair.

    Not taking PED's, HGH, or whatever is a relatively straightforward matter.

    What goes into a grade (or test score) is not... it is based on a myriad of factors, many of which are partly or wholly outside of the control of the teacher.

    I'd say teachers have a lot better reason to balk at attempts to tie their livelihood to student performance.
    Although it is said that our faith concerns matters which are obscure, the reasons for embracing the faith are not obscure but on the contrary are clearer than any natural light.
    -Descartes

  11. #41
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    I don't think I like in class monitoring. I would prefer some sort of remote monitoring in which a proctor and a sueprvisor monitor the class at random. I think that active monitors change the environment.
    The trouble with the world today is the intelligent people are full of doubt and the dumb people are full of confidence - Charles Bukowski

  12. #42
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    The easiest method is to take the end of year tests of the kids from the previous school year. If you have a beginning of year test it's ripe for intentional suppression of scores.

    I'm not saying I have all the answers, but I firmly believe you at some point have to say "This is a 3rd grade curriculum. By the end of 3rd grade all students who are achieving at an acceptable level should know these certain things. Here's a test that covers that subject matter." And you hold teachers and schools accountable for meeting some threshold of x% of students passing or at least improving from year to year. Once a district, school, or teacher is at 90% you hope for better but just say "maintain". At the micro level of an individual classroom you also have to accept that natural variation is going to occur. One difficult or troubled kid can't result in a bad review. That's what the Gates foundation is trying to advocate. Maybe their method isn't perfect, but it at least sounds like they're trying to take into account teacher feedback. The thing about their method I don't get is student survey. Some of the best teachers aren't fun and push kids. I wouldn't survey the kids. Maybe the parents.
    Last edited by Dave; 02-05-2013 at 04:27 PM.
    The cake is a lie. I'm pretty sure the numbers in the pie chart are made up too.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyerhawk View Post
    I don't think I like in class monitoring. I would prefer some sort of remote monitoring in which a proctor and a sueprvisor monitor the class at random. I think that active monitors change the environment.
    This is a very good point and very easily accomplished with inexpensive webcam technology.
    The cake is a lie. I'm pretty sure the numbers in the pie chart are made up too.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    The easiest method is to take the end of year tests of the kids from the previous school year. If you have a beginning of year test it's ripe for intentionally suppression of scores.

    I'm not saying I have all the answers, but I firmly believe you at some point have to say "This is a 3rd grade curriculum. By the end of 3rd grade all students who are achieving at an acceptable level should know these certain things. Here's a test that covers that subject matter." And you hold teachers and schools accountable for meeting some threshold of x% of students passing or at least improving from year to year. That's what the Gates foundation is trying to advocate. Maybe their method isn't perfect, but it at least sounds like they're trying to take into account teacher feedback. The thing about their method I don't get is student survey. Some of the best teachers aren't fun and push kids. I wouldn't survey the kids. Maybe the parents.
    Well one of the biggest problems is that there is simply too much variance from class to class. A teacher may have a particularly gifted class one year and a notably not gifted class the next year. However simply looking at test scores would suggest that the teacher greatly regressed as a teacher from one year to the next.

    That is the problem with using any statistical measure. In order to get a real measurement of a teacher's performance you would need to measure the individual improvement of EACH student against their past performance and come up with some sort of scale based on that. Maybe we can call up Nate Silver* and see what he's doing these days?

    * - I picked up Nate Silver's book The Signal and the Noise and it's a great read. Nothing truly shocking but I think he does a great job pointing out how people pathologically misuse stats.
    The trouble with the world today is the intelligent people are full of doubt and the dumb people are full of confidence - Charles Bukowski

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Because State and Federal legislators who are being asked to shell out more and more money for education want to know there's actually some accountability taking place... So 15-30 years ago states started putting in standard testing requirements. With no negative consequences, schools didn't care but kept saying they needed more money. So states started to attach funding to minimum levels of attainment on those test scores.
    I think I see a common mistake here threaded throughout this issue...

    At the end of the day though, you have to evaluate kids from school to school, from district to district, on some sort of standard scale.
    Whose standard? If they're being evaluated from school to school and district to district perhaps those schools and those districts should have their standard for their communities.

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