Finally! A place for Walsh and Cheezy to call home

[Jim in NYC]

If all the citizens inside the 'Citadel' are law abiding why do they need guns? The wouldn't even need them for a duel to settle disputes because there wouldn't be any disputes.

Um...why not?

I've gotten into plenty of disputes that didn't involve the law at all. Hell, you and I have gotten into more than our share of disputes on here, and neither one of us was going to run afoul of the law because of them.

[CalgaryHawkFan]

The idea that the government set the fires is at least open to question, depending on whom you believe.

The investigation was run by a Republican, and they found no fault with Reno. Take that fwiw.

[CalgaryHawkFan]

Weren't there also issues with some of the ages of the women?

Absolutely.

[ThankGod4Walsh]

There is no penalty in Texas for having sex with someone under 17 if they are your spouse.

And he was married to those girls via their parents' permissions.

The only legal charge that could have been brought against him was polygamy, as I said.

You guys are literally just reading off the "list of things told to you by the media as Waco was happening" sheet instead of all the stuff that came out after the fact.

Bigamy is a misdemeanor crime in Texas, and you pay a fine for it and go about your day. Furthermore, Texas recognizes common law marriages and by having a religious ceremony to show the wedding happened while only having one "wife" identified with county documents, one can bang 14-year olds with their parents' consent and if occupying the same domicile claim common law marriage to them if the government starts asking questions.

So the most they had on Koresh was a misdemeanor. And doubtful it would have even garnered a conviction. The "illegal guns" reason for the warrant was based on the legal purchase of bulk firearms.

Not defending the wacko (he did try to tell everyone he was going to interpret the seven seals of Revelations and claimed to be a deity after all) as it pertains to his religious bent, his manipulation of people and children, etc. But we are a country of laws and you can not bust up in somebody's home on American soil with tanks without a warrant.

Well, at least then you couldn't.

[Underdog]

That would be an AWESOME low budget black comedy...

hmmmm

Don't forget to thank me in the credits...

[Rear Admiral]

Um...why not?

I've gotten into plenty of disputes that didn't involve the law at all. Hell, you and I have gotten into more than our share of disputes on here, and neither one of us was going to run afoul of the law because of them.

Well, you have a point, but it does seem like these are going to be 'like-minded' people, coming together in harmony to create this 'community', or so they think. I wonder how they'll handle divorces, defections or infidelities. Their first 'shooting' will disillusion them all. I would think they'd have no need to carry weapons once inside their 'guarded walls'. Don't even US Servicemen check their weapons while on base?

[Rear Admiral]

The idea that the government set the fires is at least open to question, depending on whom you believe.

The investigation was run by a Republican, and they found no fault with Reno. Take that fwiw.

We'll never know for sure, will we? In that case we can look to the record of the government holding itself accountable. It doesn't exist. The fact remains the 'seige' was instigated by the government. They could have sealed the place off and cut off their supplies and waited them out with a few Sentries. Instead they elected to be the Big Bad Fed Gov and got a bunch of kids killed.

[Grimjack]

Well, you have a point, but it does seem like these are going to be 'like-minded' people, coming together in harmony to create this 'community', or so they think. I wonder how they'll handle divorces, defections or infidelities. Their first 'shooting' will disillusion them all. I would think they'd have no need to carry weapons once inside their 'guarded walls'. Don't even US Servicemen check their weapons while on base?

What can go wrong with a whole communtiy of people who don't believe others ought not to have any say in how you live.

Freedom behind high walls

[Superbelt]

There is no penalty in Texas for having sex with someone under 17 if they are your spouse.

And he was married to those girls via their parents' permissions.

The only legal charge that could have been brought against him was polygamy, as I said.

You guys are literally just reading off the "list of things told to you by the media as Waco was happening" sheet instead of all the stuff that came out after the fact.

While President Clinton and the Federal Bureau of Investigation have maintained for weeks that children inside the compound were physically and sexually abused, the only known evidence for those assertions were allegations by former cult members two years ago. Many current cult members and their lawyers have insisted such charges are baseless.

Now, a report by Dr. Perry, an expert on traumatized children, and interviews with several counselors who worked with the children provide the first details from the young Branch Davidians themselves about their lives in the compound until they left in early March.

The report, which Dr. Perry wrote for the families of the children and any therapists who work with them in the future, characterizes the world described by the children as "a misguided paramilitary community" in which sex, violence, fear, love and religion were all intertwined.

The report depicts an insular religious community of many contradictions. Although men and women were strictly segregated, Dr. Perry writes that the children told him Mr. Koresh had "wives" as young as 11 and routinely discussed sex openly with even the youngest girls in Bible lessons.

Dr. Perry said that though the children seemed highly protective of the cult's secrets, "Over the course of two months, the kids became increasingly open about 11- and 12-year-old girls being David's wives." He said it was also clear in these conversations that the status of "wife" included having sex with Mr. Koresh. Under Texas law, sex by an adult with girls under the age of 17 is statutory rape, a felony.

Gerry Williams, a lawyer with the agency that oversees Child Protective Services, said that even Mr. Koresh's attempts to prepare young girls for sex appears to have been illegal in Texas.

linky dinky

[Superbelt]

Davidian Kiri Jewel testified during 1995 congressional hearings on the siege that Koresh slept in a bed with women and children, and she believed that he had impregnated a 14-year-old. Koresh, she said, often talked about how the young girls at the compound pleased him sexually. Jewel described in graphic detail how Koresh sexually assaulted her. She testified that she wasn't afraid of getting pregnant; she was too young, she explained. She'd not even started menstruating yet.

linky dinky

[Rear Admiral]

But we are a country of laws and you can not bust up in somebody's home on American soil with tanks without a warrant.

Well, at least then you couldn't.

I thought they did have a warrant. Are you saying they didn't?

Having sex with 14 years old should be against the law; they should be at least 17, if not 18 - how else can THEY themselves consent? And how do we know he wasn't having sex with them before they were even 14? I have heard about cases in Texas where boys of 17-18-19 years old have had sex with a girl of 16 and her parents reported the kid to the Cops and he winds up with a statutory rape conviction and must register as a sex offender for life (I'm not saying that's the best outcome but yeah, if some kid I don't like is schtupping my dumbstruck 15 year old daughter I want some kind of law in place to stop him short of me throwing his carcass in the river).

It seems like, for somebody griping about others reciting the factory approved 'talking points' you tend to overlook a few relevent nuances.

[CalgaryHawkFan]

We'll never know for sure, will we? In that case we can look to the record of the government holding itself accountable. It doesn't exist. The fact remains the 'seige' was instigated by the government. They could have sealed the place off and cut off their supplies and waited them out with a few Sentries. Instead they elected to be the Big Bad Fed Gov and got a bunch of kids killed.

Dude it went on, and on, and on, and on. It's not like the served him the WARRANT on a Friday, and they busted in with flame throwers and choppers on Sunday.

[CalgaryHawkFan]

I thought they did have a warrant.

They did. And cops died serving it.

[CalgaryHawkFan]

It seems like, for somebody griping about others reciting the factory approved 'talking points' you tend to overlook a few relevent nuances.

<golf clap>

...

[Rear Admiral]

Dude it went on, and on, and on, and on. It's not like the served him the WARRANT on a Friday, and they busted in with flame throwers and choppers on Sunday.

I know what happened. It was 56 days or so they were blasting music and trying every other trick in the book to get them out, including putting secret audio devices in milk cartons they allowed through to them in some kind of 'good faith' negotiation. They had a madman on their hands. They knew he was sexually abusing children, they knew he was likely mentally and physically abusing children. They knew they were fanatics and they had an arsenal. They knew Koresh would occasionally be seen around town - and that's when they should have clipped him. Instead they got into a standoff that was foreseeable and they got those children killed.