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  1. #16
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    I agree, though I think there are only certain places where he fits. I don't think it makes sense for a team like the Chiefs or Bills to go after him.
    "Governing doesn’t disappear when government shrinks; instead corporations come to govern your life — like HMO’s, oil companies, drug companies, agribusiness, and so on, with accountability only to maximizing profit, not to public needs." - George Lakoff

  2. #17
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    "Governing doesn’t disappear when government shrinks; instead corporations come to govern your life — like HMO’s, oil companies, drug companies, agribusiness, and so on, with accountability only to maximizing profit, not to public needs." - George Lakoff

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyndham View Post
    If you wait until round 2 you aren't addressing the position, you're just settling. That MAY prove to be what all the teams do, but I doubt it, mainly because I doubt they're as hungover from Luck/RG3 as all the Twidiots seem to be.

    IMO the QBs aren't particularly bunched up. There's Geno vs Wilson and then everyone else. Geno with elite production and good skill, but questions on footwork/mechanics, offensive system, possibly attitude; Wilson with a down year (which should be taken in context), some decision-making questions, etc. Everyone else, however, has a laundry list of question marks. A guy like Glennon has the height and arm strength but according to many he looks like a clown on most of his passes. Sure, he's a guy you might simply take a punt on with the 40th pick or whatever.

    There's also the big factor that the 1st pick no longer costs too much. Missing on a QB simply won't hurt you much more than missing on anyone. The REAL pain comes with 1 thing: NOT picking a QB who you should've.

    And remember: there's no such thing as a "franchise" LT. You don't win anything with an elite LT. The Dolphins wish they took Matt Ryan and didn't pay attention to the question marks over his INTs and upside.

    Better to swing and miss than bunt.
    I don't see any of them as franchise QBs. Its possible but FAR from a lock. I'd rather wait and grab one that drops. Its a risk either way, I'd rather risk a 2nd or trade up into the late 1st then risk a high pick on one.

    Hell, I'd probably rather take a Bray in the 2nd than waste a high pick that could also get me a stud OT or pass rusher.

    I just have a hard time seeing anything but inconsistency with any of them.

    Wilson is probably the best of the bunch, hard to say though.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    I have to agree with this sentiment. I'd throw in that I think Glennon is right there with those 2 as well. He's pretty underrated. Similar stats and question marks to Matt Ryan who you mention here. Pretty bad supporting cast too, lots of drops and not a lot of playmakers. He has very good arm talent and I think he goes through progressions the best.
    Glennon looks very skittish when the rush gets anywhere near him and his ball flutters terribly. He had a couple of plays in practice yesterday where he had no idea what to do when the rush got there and looked horrible. He reminds me a lot of Eli Manning, only taller. The only thing that saves Eli from more criticism is his clutch throws but I'm not sure Glennon has that. In fact, I doubt it.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoViking View Post
    I'd rather wait and grab one that drops.
    Then you're just picking the guy that no one else wants. It's as simple as that. You might get SUPER lucky, or perhaps you're planning to develop him over the long term, but otherwise you're just hoping and praying, because if he gets passed over 32 times, no one thinks he's any good; if they did, he'd be long gone. That's the inherent and undeniable nature of the position.

    I'm speaking generally so let me be more specific to this draft. *IF* it's April 20th and NFL teams, not Twidiots and Forum GMs, have like 4, 5, 6 guys rated within points of each other, fine. I fully agree with you then. No way you take 1a when 1d or 1e will be there in 15-20 picks for you to jump up and get. I guess it goes without saying that I think it'll be different to that when the draft rolls around. I think it's Wilson/Geno then everyone else. I think those guys go top 10, and finally all mockheads realise it, while the rest go the Ponder/Weeden route of simply landing somewhere where a team wants to take a punt, maybe as early as 14-15 but more likely in the early 20s.

    Your risk-aversion stuff is weaksauce, though. If you don't have a franchise QB, it's your biggest need. How many times have I posted that the last few years? It really surprises me to be honest, what with the way the NFL is these days. You cannot, cannot, CANNOT win with "solid". Sure, you might fluke out 11-5 against a weak schedule, but you won't win shizzle unless your QB can potentially go 27/35, 300 yards and 3 TD in a playoff game against a playoff defense. That's what you'r e betting on when you draft a QB, and it's exactly why you should never "just wait" and take this guy or that guy, because the chances those guys can deliver that kind of performance are much lower than the guys taken top 10. Again, assuming that this class sorts itself out by April, which I'm confident it will.

    Draftniks work on "value" and numbers, winners pick QBs. Hey St. Louis, good call on giving away a once-in-a-decade type QB. Sure all those solid players you'll end up with will surpass RG3's impact. Duh. They could land All-Pros at each position -- say a DT, CB and WR -- and it wouldn't make a damn difference. They've still got a noodle-armed turd at QB and won't **** with him. Meanwhile the Skins can use FA and other picks to build around a guy who will win.

  6. #21
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    As an Eagles fan, the question I ask is, are any of these guys better than Nick Foles? I am not sure any of them are clearly better, though some may turn out to be. Thus, I don't think I reach for one.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyndham View Post
    Then you're just picking the guy that no one else wants. It's as simple as that. You might get SUPER lucky, or perhaps you're planning to develop him over the long term, but otherwise you're just hoping and praying, because if he gets passed over 32 times, no one thinks he's any good; if they did, he'd be long gone. That's the inherent and undeniable nature of the position.

    I'm speaking generally so let me be more specific to this draft. *IF* it's April 20th and NFL teams, not Twidiots and Forum GMs, have like 4, 5, 6 guys rated within points of each other, fine. I fully agree with you then. No way you take 1a when 1d or 1e will be there in 15-20 picks for you to jump up and get. I guess it goes without saying that I think it'll be different to that when the draft rolls around. I think it's Wilson/Geno then everyone else. I think those guys go top 10, and finally all mockheads realise it, while the rest go the Ponder/Weeden route of simply landing somewhere where a team wants to take a punt, maybe as early as 14-15 but more likely in the early 20s.

    Your risk-aversion stuff is weaksauce, though. If you don't have a franchise QB, it's your biggest need. How many times have I posted that the last few years? It really surprises me to be honest, what with the way the NFL is these days. You cannot, cannot, CANNOT win with "solid". Sure, you might fluke out 11-5 against a weak schedule, but you won't win shizzle unless your QB can potentially go 27/35, 300 yards and 3 TD in a playoff game against a playoff defense. That's what you'r e betting on when you draft a QB, and it's exactly why you should never "just wait" and take this guy or that guy, because the chances those guys can deliver that kind of performance are much lower than the guys taken top 10. Again, assuming that this class sorts itself out by April, which I'm confident it will.

    Draftniks work on "value" and numbers, winners pick QBs. Hey St. Louis, good call on giving away a once-in-a-decade type QB. Sure all those solid players you'll end up with will surpass RG3's impact. Duh. They could land All-Pros at each position -- say a DT, CB and WR -- and it wouldn't make a damn difference. They've still got a noodle-armed turd at QB and won't **** with him. Meanwhile the Skins can use FA and other picks to build around a guy who will win.
    That's the attitude that got us Ponder and I certainly wouldn't have wanted to trade up for Locker or Gabbert. Meanwhile, three of the top QBs in the league are those that dropped - Brady, Rodgers and Brees. Wilson and Kaepernick are looking pretty promising as well.

    If a QB isn't within a few picks of the top ten, I wouldn't want to spend a top ten pick on him - period. The other reason for that is if you blow that pick, you're stuck with them for a while. That's why St. Louis didn't go for RGIII. It's tough to give up on a high draft pick or a QB after only a couple seasons. That's what San Diego did with Brees and it hasn't exactly turned out great for them.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggloo View Post
    As an Eagles fan, the question I ask is, are any of these guys better than Nick Foles? I am not sure any of them are clearly better, though some may turn out to be. Thus, I don't think I reach for one.
    I think some are better prospects than when Foles came out. But I'm not sure it's worth using such a high pick on it.
    Mac9, to the true warrior. the ultimate competitor and the most worth adversary any athlete has ever faced off against. He was an inspiration for both his on the field play, off the field contributions and his leadership. The world is now a worse place without him.

    "Have the courage to have your wisdom regarded as stupidity" - Justice Antonin Scalia

    "Just because you're the lone voice in the wilderness, it doesn't mean you're wrong."
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    I agree, though I think there are only certain places where he fits. I don't think it makes sense for a team like the Chiefs or Bills to go after him.
    Why not a team like the Chiefs?

    I think they are a perfect fit, I think he can succeed in a WCO and he's the perfect guy to bring in and manage a team while a rookie gets up to speed
    "It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man" - Jack Handy

  10. #25
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    I'd definitely wait and grab somebody later in this draft. Nobody has seperated themselves from the pack or shown themselves to be considered franchise QB's imo. Geno Smith started well this season but got progressively worse as it went along and was awful in the Bowl game. If he's the best available, it's not a good QB class. Of course teams will convince themselves otherwise and take QB's early but this looks like the Gabbert/Locker/Ponder situation all over again.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Soapdish View Post
    That's the attitude that got us Ponder
    Actually no. If the Vikings had that attitude they wouldn't have stupidly passed on QBs so many times -- THAT is what led to them FORCING themselves to take Ponder. That's kind of the whole point.

    Again getting back to this draft, it's funny how people keep saying no one has separated themselves ... it's January! Who has? Luke Joker was getting shout-outs as the next Ogden a week ago on Twitter, now people are swinging from Fisher's nuts when most didn't even know his name 2 weeks ago. It's alright for some 300lber from a school no one watches to vault from late 1st to #4 overall because he can mirror edge rushers in shorts and a tee but a QB can't/won't ascend in workouts and interviews (the latter being the single most important thing for any position group between January and April)? Tough crowd. Then again people always fall in love with OL. They're safe. Gallery was safe. Awesome. What do they win you?

    If it turns out 3 months ago that no QB is legitimately, in any way worthy of being a high pick, by all means I can only agree to pass on them. My assumption is that one will, and even though they won't be RG3 or Luck (duh), you have to take him.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyndham View Post
    Then you're just picking the guy that no one else wants. It's as simple as that. You might get SUPER lucky, or perhaps you're planning to develop him over the long term, but otherwise you're just hoping and praying, because if he gets passed over 32 times, no one thinks he's any good; if they did, he'd be long gone. That's the inherent and undeniable nature of the position.

    I'm speaking generally so let me be more specific to this draft. *IF* it's April 20th and NFL teams, not Twidiots and Forum GMs, have like 4, 5, 6 guys rated within points of each other, fine. I fully agree with you then. No way you take 1a when 1d or 1e will be there in 15-20 picks for you to jump up and get. I guess it goes without saying that I think it'll be different to that when the draft rolls around. I think it's Wilson/Geno then everyone else. I think those guys go top 10, and finally all mockheads realise it, while the rest go the Ponder/Weeden route of simply landing somewhere where a team wants to take a punt, maybe as early as 14-15 but more likely in the early 20s.

    Your risk-aversion stuff is weaksauce, though. If you don't have a franchise QB, it's your biggest need. How many times have I posted that the last few years? It really surprises me to be honest, what with the way the NFL is these days. You cannot, cannot, CANNOT win with "solid". Sure, you might fluke out 11-5 against a weak schedule, but you won't win shizzle unless your QB can potentially go 27/35, 300 yards and 3 TD in a playoff game against a playoff defense. That's what you'r e betting on when you draft a QB, and it's exactly why you should never "just wait" and take this guy or that guy, because the chances those guys can deliver that kind of performance are much lower than the guys taken top 10. Again, assuming that this class sorts itself out by April, which I'm confident it will.

    Draftniks work on "value" and numbers, winners pick QBs. Hey St. Louis, good call on giving away a once-in-a-decade type QB. Sure all those solid players you'll end up with will surpass RG3's impact. Duh. They could land All-Pros at each position -- say a DT, CB and WR -- and it wouldn't make a damn difference. They've still got a noodle-armed turd at QB and won't **** with him. Meanwhile the Skins can use FA and other picks to build around a guy who will win.
    I just don't see any of them as a sure thing, just a shot in the dark. I'm not a huge fan of taking a shot in the dark in the 1st.

    By definition everyone after the #1 overall pick is a guy that someone else didn't want. Who cares.

    Glennon would scare the crap out of me. Lead feet, scare of the rush, passes tend to wobble. In the 2nd, the risk is fine as a project. But I could also take Bray there and be happy.

    Geno Smith just has something off about him, not sure what it is. Good player in a funky system but not sure what to think as a pro. Not much of an athlete.

    Wilson is probably the one I like the most but after that, its a big bag of meh. Lots of guys with potential as projects.

    Heck, Landry Jones might develop as a 3rd rounder better than some of these guys as 1sts.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyndham View Post
    Actually no. If the Vikings had that attitude they wouldn't have stupidly passed on QBs so many times -- THAT is what led to them FORCING themselves to take Ponder. That's kind of the whole point.

    Again getting back to this draft, it's funny how people keep saying no one has separated themselves ... it's January! Who has? Luke Joker was getting shout-outs as the next Ogden a week ago on Twitter, now people are swinging from Fisher's nuts when most didn't even know his name 2 weeks ago. It's alright for some 300lber from a school no one watches to vault from late 1st to #4 overall because he can mirror edge rushers in shorts and a tee but a QB can't/won't ascend in workouts and interviews (the latter being the single most important thing for any position group between January and April)? Tough crowd. Then again people always fall in love with OL. They're safe. Gallery was safe. Awesome. What do they win you?

    If it turns out 3 months ago that no QB is legitimately, in any way worthy of being a high pick, by all means I can only agree to pass on them. My assumption is that one will, and even though they won't be RG3 or Luck (duh), you have to take him.
    They didn't really pass on many QBs. There were a lot of years they were drafting later in the 1st and there was no one of worth.

    In 2007 they drafted Adrian Peterson.
    In 2008 they traded their 1st for Jared Allen.
    In 2009 they drafted WR Percy Harvin @ 22, the next QB to go was Pat White.
    In 2010 they traded down to 34 and took CB Chris Cook, the next QB to go was Jimmy Clausen.

    They didn't pass on too many franchise QBs there. The reality is that the Vikes haven't been in a position to draft a franchise QB in the 1st round in forever. They haven't passed on much.

    By your logic they should have taken Brady Quinn over Adrian Peterson.

    As far as separation goes, players definitely separate themselves during Senior Bowl week. Geno Smith chose not to participate and Mayock and the former scout they have on NFL Network have been ripping him for it. He COULD have separated himself if he blew the doors off the Senior Bowl but decided to not show up and take a chance.

    As far as the OL, both Super Bowl teams have first round LTs and QBs that weren't drafted in the top 15. BTW, Staley played at Central Michigan.........so go ahead and rip on what program Fisher played at but Staley seems to have worked out pretty well.

    All of this proves...........exactly nothing.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyndham View Post
    Actually no. If the Vikings had that attitude they wouldn't have stupidly passed on QBs so many times -- THAT is what led to them FORCING themselves to take Ponder. That's kind of the whole point.
    Who did the Vikings stupidly pass on? There haven't been that many first-rate prospects by the time that we were up to draft.

    Rodgers? Ok, but we had Culpepper who had just had arguably the second best season for a QB ever.
    We didn't trade up for Cutler in the next year and a lot of Vikes fans on this board were upset about that so I'll admit to that one, but that was a while ago.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggloo View Post
    As an Eagles fan, the question I ask is, are any of these guys better than Nick Foles? I am not sure any of them are clearly better, though some may turn out to be. Thus, I don't think I reach for one.
    They are all in the same ballpark. That's the thing going with a 3rd round QB that can play the position but doesn't excite anyone enough with his skillset to go in the top 2 rounds just a year ago.

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