I Told You So!

[Payton34]

Extenuating circumstances in and of themselves come about in EVERY situation in EVERY profession. I do not think it's unreasonable to have some linkage of test scores to an evaluation of a teacher.

Most professions aren't rated based on how they affect the performance of other people with their own lives and set of circumstances.......

Again, what I find funny is that your arguments basically say, "Well when a kid passes that shouldn't, why does the teacher get credit for that?".... But yet you seem to miss the other side of that coin (Which occurs far more often)...

Either way, even if you only see one side of the coin, your conclusion still seems to be that standardized tests don't accurrately evaluate the teacher's influence in learning....

[Underdog]

Best part of this thread? That's there's a standardized test called the "SOL."

[Payton34]

Best part of this thread? That's there's a standardized test called the "SOL."

Yes, the double-meaning is DEFINATELY not lost on the teachers in the Old Dominion.....

[Raid]

Most professions aren't rated based on how they affect the performance of other people with their own lives and set of circumstances.......

Again, what I find funny is that your arguments basically say, "Well when a kid passes that shouldn't, why does the teacher get credit for that?".... But yet you seem to miss the other side of that coin (Which occurs far more often)...

Either way, even if you only see one side of the coin, your conclusion still seems to be that standardized tests don't accurrately evaluate the teacher's influence in learning....

And teachers should not SOLELY be rated on how they affect the performance of people with their own lives and set of circumstances....... I DO believe that 'standardized' testing should be a PART of a teachers evaluation. There must be some baseline established. When 4th grade teacher 'A' has 25 kids and the next room over 4th grade teacher 'B' has 27 kids... and each class is given the same test.... and 14 of teacher 'A's kids pass and 22 of teacher 'B's kid pass.... why should that not be a consideration in evaluation of the two teachers? There must be some assumptions of a normal distribution regarding the habits and knowledge levels of all the students. (i.e. - the 'mix' of each class is about the same).

[AndromedaPatFan]

DEFINATELY not lost

More's the pity.

[AndromedaPatFan]

And teachers should not SOLELY be rated on how they affect the performance of people with their own lives and set of circumstances....... I DO believe that 'standardized' testing should be a PART of a teachers evaluation. There must be some baseline established. When 4th grade teacher 'A' has 25 kids and the next room over 4th grade teacher 'B' has 27 kids... and each class is given the same test.... and 14 of teacher 'A's kids pass and 22 of teacher 'B's kid pass.... why should that not be a consideration in evaluation of the two teachers? There must be some assumptions of a normal distribution regarding the habits and knowledge levels of all the students. (i.e. - the 'mix' of each class is about the same).

You have a point. However,

• What do you think the standard deviation might be in that example? ;)
• Are students really randomized among classes? In most schools and school districts, I would suspect not. Measurements adjusted to correct for such differences will be even less statistically reliable than would be small-sample-size measurements in a truly random case.
• Teaching-to-the-test has a lot wrong with it.

[Jim in NYC]

You said that already. A liar, backsliding, AND repetitive.

[Payton34]

More's the pity.

Never said I was a teacher, did I?

[Payton34]

And teachers should not SOLELY be rated on how they affect the performance of people with their own lives and set of circumstances....... I DO believe that 'standardized' testing should be a PART of a teachers evaluation. There must be some baseline established. When 4th grade teacher 'A' has 25 kids and the next room over 4th grade teacher 'B' has 27 kids... and each class is given the same test.... and 14 of teacher 'A's kids pass and 22 of teacher 'B's kid pass.... why should that not be a consideration in evaluation of the two teachers? There must be some assumptions of a normal distribution regarding the habits and knowledge levels of all the students. (i.e. - the 'mix' of each class is about the same).

Because, as an example, a good principal will recognize that certain teachers have a flair for teaching to a particular type of student... Some teachers ARE better and more comfortable teaching standard kids than honors kids for instance..... So any principal worth their salt would recognize this strength and perhaps this teacher would have more standard kids than honors kids or what have you....

Maybe your heart is in the right place as far as evaluating teachers. But unless a FAIR way to do it based on test scores can be produced? It is NOT a good way to evaluate... Again, my primary complaint on this is the fact that ALL kids have to be tested with no exceptions... Inclusion kids, Consistently truant kids, Kids with a supportive home environment, Kids with an unsupportive home environment..... NO exceptions... It is IMPOSSIBLE to say with any certainty sometimes why one kid passes and another doesn't.... That's why its not fair to simply default to saying, "Well, it MUST be the teacher then..."...

[ForWhoForWhat?]

Several states are now seeing parent groups forming to combat testing standards, vouchers, and other corporate reforms. These are just a few i've seen pop up in the last 24 hours:
NY: http://changethestakes.files.wordpre...raft-9-pdf.pdf
TX: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jason-...b_1905972.html
OH: http://www.spps.org/strong_schools
IN: http://neifpe.blogspot.com/
TN: http://www.tennessean.com/article/20...ter-authorizer
-This one is interesting because Michelle Rhee’s Students First said about TN:

One of the nation’s most influential education reform groups recommended this morning that Tennessee create a school voucher program and take charter school approval out of the hands of local school boards. StudentsFirst gave the state’s education policy an overall C- or 1.75 grade-point average for 2013, mainly because of its low marks on policies aimed at giving parents a choice in their child’s education, a cornerstone idea of the reform movement.

Clearly, Students First is not at all interested in local control over local dollars.

[ForWhoForWhat?]

Cute how you cut my quote without the rest of the sentence. Why do teachers want it both ways? If the kids come to every class and pass the test it's their brilliance of teaching and if they fail, well the kids weren't paying attention. And if they miss a 'lot' of time and pass the test it's because again of their teaching brilliance and if they fail it's, well they missed so much class time. In other words, no teacher is substandard.

What's with the piss-ant rage?

Hmmm, how does one say this without talking down to you? Most teachers don't want kids test standardized scores to judge the teachers performance period. In my extended network, public/private/charter school teachers don't want this and never have wanted this. Yes, that is anecdotal evidence, but that seems to be the sentiment nationwide.

So it's not a matter of "teachers wanting it both ways". That's an argument you made that up.

[ForWhoForWhat?]

Why DO some kids miss a lot of time and pass anyway?

Why DO some kids have 100% attendance and fail anyway?

No definitive answer.... You are making the point teachers are trying to make here and you don't even know it!!!

There are so MANY extenuating circumstances that it is unfair to link test results to teacher evals.... YOU seem to think that teachers are saying that we should only evaluate their teaching based on the kids who passed.... Where on Earth did you get that idea? Because that isn't the point at all!!!

When i try to tell him that he says i'm talking down to him. Raid has more of an issue with teachers than he cares about the topic at hand. It's like he's been possessed by Whiner bill

[twolvesguy]

Extenuating circumstances in and of themselves come about in EVERY situation in EVERY profession. I do not think it's unreasonable to have some linkage of test scores to an evaluation of a teacher.

I do Raid, and my response to your earlier post is because I'm very close to the issue. My GF is a special needs teacher. IMO, and I've told her this.... and this is an admitted ignorant view, but I don't think some of these special needs kids should be in the general population of students. If you knew what she faces on a daily basis, you'd be shocked. Some of these kids spit on her, pee on her, and hit her. If I had that situation, I'd show up each day with rope and duct tape. ZERO kids would get out of line. But as I said.... I'm very ignorant on the reality of many of these special needs kids.

But to the point, I'm not denying there are bad teachers. But to evaluate them on the test scores of their students doesn't determine good/bad teachers. A handful of kids who get zero support from their parents and know it.... they don't care about their grades or test scores. The teacher can be the best on the planet.... but if the kid/parent doesn't care, then it's going to show.

[ForWhoForWhat?]

http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stori...-to-next-grade

Officials expect a lot more students will fail the state standardized tests this year, and so to keep the summer school numbers and retention numbers from skyrocketing, they are changing the rules.

The city will only require elementary and middle school students whose scores are in the bottom 10 percent go to summer school and pass, meaning some students may fail the high stakes exams and get to move on anyway.

This is notable because in 2004 Mayor Bloomberg enacted a strict policy to end "social promotion" requiring any student who failed the state test to attend summer school. This is clearly going against that policy and passing failing students.


But the teachers will still be judged based on the kids scores. Wouldn't passing failing students compound the problem for their teachers the following year[s]?