Miguel Cabrera Wins Triple Crown

[The Cryin Lion]

Unless one of those defenders is also a great hitter.

...I was answering his question. Not making an argument.

[Canada]

if a DH hit for the Triple Crown should he win the MVP???

[The Q]

It isn't Cabrera vs. Nick Punto. It is a guy with great D (hold doubles to singles, triples to doubles, etc.) AND similar OPS who took a well below .500 team to the best record when he played. At the plate, Cabrera could be argued as better. But there is no baseball version of Horse, there are different aspects that decide one's value. Getting into scoring position, making pitchers uneasy, and playing exceptional D are not bonuses. They are what goes into evaluating a player's worth.

The problem is you're using VERY questionable measures to say one guy should win. Especially when one is undisputably the better offensive player. I mean 40 points is nothing to sneeze at. Especially when one has been almost historically lucky on BABIP.

[keyred]

The problem is you're using VERY questionable measures to say one guy should win. Especially when one is undisputably the better offensive player. I mean 40 points is nothing to sneeze at.

If you take away SBs as a separate criteria and factor it into OPS, wouldn't Trout's OPS be higher?

[Nastradamus]

It isn't Cabrera vs. Nick Punto. It is a guy with great D (hold doubles to singles, triples to doubles, etc.) AND similar OPS who took a well below .500 team to the best record when he played. At the plate, Cabrera could be argued as better. But there is no baseball version of Horse, there are different aspects that decide one's value. Getting into scoring position, making pitchers uneasy, and playing exceptional D are not bonuses. They are what goes into evaluating a player's worth.

Saying he took them to the best record is a bit misleading. First of all, Pujols and the pitching(to some degree at least) got themselves straightened out and would Cabrera be more of an MVP if he had missed April and the Tigers had sucked then? I don't get why people keep using that logic.

[ducky]

Once again I ask the question:

Is there anyone who thinks that if Cabrera was traded to the Angels for Trout straight up at the begining of the season that the Tigers still make the playoffs while and the Angles still miss it? IMO it is a lock that a trade of those two players would have changed the postseason results of both teams.

[The Cryin Lion]

Once again I ask the question:

Is there anyone who thinks that if Cabrera was traded to the Angels for Trout straight up at the begining of the season that the Tigers still make the playoffs while and the Angles still miss it? IMO it is a lock that a trade of those two players would have changed the postseason results of both teams.

I agree with your point. I think people won't find it compelling, however, due to it's hypothetical nature.

[Underdog]

"IMO" being the key there. I don't think you can say with certainty that the Tigers wouldn't have been better off with Trout replacing the giant vortex of suck that was Brennan Boesch in RF even with whatever ragtag collection of misfit toys would be playing 3B instead of Cabrera. Boesch was horribad...way below replacement level. The upgrade from him to Trout would be massive in this scenario. Whereas the Angels would be replacing Callaspo with Bourjos...any improvement the Angels might experience could be attributed to that just as well (particularly if you're assuming that Bourjos would be a 4.5 win player playing everyday again as he was in 2011). It's all speculation either way, of course, but I don't think it'd be unreasonable to conclude the outcomes could still have been the same.

[Donkeypuncher]

Saying he took them to the best record is a bit misleading. First of all, Pujols and the pitching(to some degree at least) got themselves straightened out and would Cabrera be more of an MVP if he had missed April and the Tigers had sucked then? I don't get why people keep using that logic.

It's funny how hitting with runners on and pitching with a lead improves play, isn't it?

Cabrera didn't miss time, and his team was mediocre all year. Trout did miss time, and his team's record skyrocketed immediately upon his arrival. What don't you get? I'm not giving him 100% credit, but that is something Cabrera doesn't have to hang his hat on.

[Nastradamus]

It's funny how hitting with runners on and pitching with a lead improves play, isn't it?

Cabrera didn't miss time, and his team was mediocre all year. Trout did miss time, and his team's record skyrocketed immediately upon his arrival. What don't you get? I'm not giving him 100% credit, but that is something Cabrera doesn't have to hang his hat on.

You're stretching, quite a bit. I'm sure having Trout on base didn't hurt Pujols, but he's Albert Pujols. He returned to his career norms and he's always hit regardless of situation. Lets not give Trout credit for his success just yet. Calling Trout up didn't get them Zach Greinke and all of the pitchers in that starting staff have had success over the course of their careers

Cabrera's team being mediocre is irrelevant. Look at the Angels' roster and the TIgers' roster, the Tigers should be mediocre or slightly above like they were and the Angels should be elite. Its not all on Trout. Yes, he helped them, yes he was a big factor in their improvement. That's enough to say right there, no need to be extreme with it. You are penalizing Cabrera for not missing time when the argument in the MVP race shoudl in fact go the other way, why don't you get that?

[Nastradamus]

Once again I ask the question:

Is there anyone who thinks that if Cabrera was traded to the Angels for Trout straight up at the begining of the season that the Tigers still make the playoffs while and the Angles still miss it? IMO it is a lock that a trade of those two players would have changed the postseason results of both teams.

I think its quite difficult to say either way. The Tigers had the worst OF defense in baseball and were probably one of the worst baserunning teams in baseball. What they do at 3B I am admittedly not sure of, but they probably could have figured something out with Inge(worth a win or 2 for Oakland I believe, a lot better than Boesch in RF who was negative a win or 2) or Infante or a different trade. It wouldn't have been pretty, but it just has to be better than Boesch really.

[Donkeypuncher]

I am not penalizing him for not missing time, I'm just giving credit to Trout based on the fact that his team got better when he arrived and his being the best player on the team. I get exactly your reasoning for thinking Cabrera should be MVP and think the writers will side with you. His achievement is shinier than Trout's records.

[Nastradamus]

THe TC is a minimal factor if anything for me. I just think the Tigers would have made a similar jump in quality from April to May and beyond if Cabby had missed April.