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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    Yah Q,thats exactly it. Even if you were right, there would certainly be no way to prove it, its comepletely subjective a. nd the tape doesn't back you up one bit. Jones made a great tackle and I'd suggest the tape shows Dyson giv ping his all and them some to make that play. Now drafting Dyson over Moss, that may have cost 'em, we can agree there.
    If he gave it his all an arm tackle wouldnt' have brought him down. He caught the ball when Jones had a foot in the EZ and couldn't' do anything but fold up like a used napkin.
    Mac9, to the true warrior. the ultimate competitor and the most worth adversary any athlete has ever faced off against. He was an inspiration for both his on the field play, off the field contributions and his leadership. The world is now a worse place without him.

    "Have the courage to have your wisdom regarded as stupidity" - Justice Antonin Scalia

    "Just because you're the lone voice in the wilderness, it doesn't mean you're wrong."
    - Ghandi

  2. #62
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    If anything Mcnair, who didn't play all that well ftr, threw it too early. He had all the time in the world and Dyson was breaking for the EZ pretty unimpeded. Plus they were going for the tie, so lets not get too ahead of ourselves.
    "Governing doesn’t disappear when government shrinks; instead corporations come to govern your life — like HMO’s, oil companies, drug companies, agribusiness, and so on, with accountability only to maximizing profit, not to public needs." - George Lakoff

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    If anything Mcnair, who didn't play all that well ftr, threw it too early. He had all the time in the world and Dyson was breaking for the EZ pretty unimpeded. Plus they were going for the tie, so lets not get too ahead of ourselves.
    completing like 60% of your passes plus the most rushing yards ever for a QB in a SB isnt' good?

    And it was a timing play. But Dyson's poor route made it appear shorter than it was.
    Mac9, to the true warrior. the ultimate competitor and the most worth adversary any athlete has ever faced off against. He was an inspiration for both his on the field play, off the field contributions and his leadership. The world is now a worse place without him.

    "Have the courage to have your wisdom regarded as stupidity" - Justice Antonin Scalia

    "Just because you're the lone voice in the wilderness, it doesn't mean you're wrong."
    - Ghandi

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by dasher View Post
    I think it's more of reading progression than throwing motion with Kap.

    The amount time a College QB has to throw the ball compared to an NFL QB is very different. QBs like RGIII and Kap are RIGHTHALF-1-2-Run or RIGHTHALF-1-2-Throwaway. QBs.
    That progression can be about 6 seconds and College. In the NFL that is usually shorter than 4 seconds.

    RGIII

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMm2qGMGV8Q

    The throw itself isn't gorgeous, but watch how RGIII goes from LEFT-Read1-LEFT-Read2--SCRAMBLE-RIGHTDEEP. He used his eyes to misguide the DEEP safety and allow his man to go to the corner. This is a 3 READ NFL throw in 4 seconds. It's a reason why coaches believe that he'll do well in the pros.

    but the truth is that you have to LOOK deep to find Kaepernick throwing an NFL Style Throw. I wasn't high on Cam Newton because I doubted his discipline to get to LEFT-READ1-LEFT-READ2-RUN in under 3 seconds. But his coaches had faith in him and that's why he looked like Superman in year 1.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEzwj...eature=related

    The Nevada PISTOL is literally PLAYACTION-READ1-BOOTLEGRUN but more like PLAYACTION-BOOTLEG.

    He reads off the DE quickly and uses the Conventional Defensive Timing of READ1-READ2 to run. He decides on whether he'll throw in pre-read. Play Action in Pistol is meant to disrupt the defensive end and mike backer (like an option). Play Action in the NFL is meant to disrupt the safeties. When I watch film on CK in shotgun, he scrambles and reads just one player.
    His passes were high-percentage plays that work in college (bubble screens and play-action-post). Against NFL corners stengh and ability to adjust their hips, I couldn't see him starting under he gets 1 or 2 offseasons. Not only did he buy time in college w/ scramblng but he took 6-7 seconds at times to get to his 2nd read.

    As a QB, it's hard for me to believe that , under pressure, CK could ever become a LEFT1-CENTER2-DROPOFFRIGHT-3 QB like Luck, RGIII, Brees, or Manning. He has the brain and character to do it, but the NFL expects QBs to get this within months when it really takes 4-5 years to master (ie Aaron Rodgers).
    I agree this was his biggest issue coming out (playing in an offense with unconventional reads & routes). But I see no reason he cannot overcome it.

    I agree his throwing motion is overblown. As long as he's extending his arm properly, planting his feet properly and getting it around quick enough (and according to that Sports Science test he is) he'll be fine in that regard.
    Last edited by Yellowknifer; 03-16-2012 at 08:59 PM.
    "There were many ways of not burdening one's conscience, of shunning responsibility, looking away, keeping mum. When the unspeakable truth of the holocaust then became known at the end of the war, all too many of us claimed that they had not known anything about it or even suspected anything."

    - Richard Von Weizsaecker

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    If anything Mcnair, who didn't play all that well ftr, threw it too early. He had all the time in the world and Dyson was breaking for the EZ pretty unimpeded. Plus they were going for the tie, so lets not get too ahead of ourselves.
    McNair played great. It was just one of those games where the little things made all the difference. It hurts to lose due to special teams play, but special teams play counts too.
    "There were many ways of not burdening one's conscience, of shunning responsibility, looking away, keeping mum. When the unspeakable truth of the holocaust then became known at the end of the war, all too many of us claimed that they had not known anything about it or even suspected anything."

    - Richard Von Weizsaecker

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Q View Post
    completing like 60% of your passes plus the most rushing yards ever for a QB in a SB isnt' good?

    And it was a timing play. But Dyson's poor route made it appear shorter than it was.
    I love Mac, but his timing was off on that throw. Its a nitpick, but lyour assertion is absurd so I feel ok with that. Putting up 16, or even 22 with the FGs, is not the greatest game. Its enough, but its not OMG, that is an MVP caliber player.
    "Governing doesn’t disappear when government shrinks; instead corporations come to govern your life — like HMO’s, oil companies, drug companies, agribusiness, and so on, with accountability only to maximizing profit, not to public needs." - George Lakoff

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    I love Mac, but his timing was off on that throw. Its a nitpick, but lyour assertion is absurd so I feel ok with that. Putting up 16, or even 22 with the FGs, is not the greatest game. Its enough, but its not OMG, that is an MVP caliber player.
    Would've been 25 since they would've kicked instead of throwing to the ***** scrub on the last play.

    And the timing was off because Dyson ran the wrong route. Fisher said it, Mac said it, Steckel diagrammed it (still couldn't talk about the play itself at the time) and Dyson himself said it after he was forced to watch it again.
    Mac9, to the true warrior. the ultimate competitor and the most worth adversary any athlete has ever faced off against. He was an inspiration for both his on the field play, off the field contributions and his leadership. The world is now a worse place without him.

    "Have the courage to have your wisdom regarded as stupidity" - Justice Antonin Scalia

    "Just because you're the lone voice in the wilderness, it doesn't mean you're wrong."
    - Ghandi

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yellowknifer View Post
    I agree this was his biggest issue coming out (playing in an offense with unconventional reads & routes). But I see no reason he cannot overcome it.

    I agree his throwing motion is overblown. As long as he's extending his arm properly, planting his feet properly and getting it around quick enough (and according to that Sports Science test he is) he'll be fine in that regard.
    I don't like it when people say "they can't start" in the NFL. Anyone can start. A solid throwing motion can shave off 1/3 of a second. Pre-Read defense can shave off 1/2 a second and maybe a second. Scrambling can shave off a second....maybe more.

    What makes Peyton and Brady the two best quarterback of all time is their brain. And more specifically the speed of their eyes and how fast it hits the brain to make a decision. Manning predicts the defense better than anyone I've ever seen. To the point where he calls audibles over and over until he gets the defense he wants. He also confuses them in this process - tiring them out mentally more than physically. What Brady represents to me is discipline. There's some part of him that a) isn't afraid of getting sacked b) knows that the speed of the defense won't get to him fast enough to mess with his process. Then it comes down to his thought process. After pre-read if he spots a double team, he'll know who has 1 on 1 match up and know within .02 seconds what angle to hit him at (brady uses a wideouts wingspan perfectly).

  9. #69
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    Any limitations Kaepernick has in reading defenses (and that's really really really really really speculative) will be balanced by the fact he's fantastic throwing on the move and has great athletic ability to move around. According to sports science his motion was faster than average. No doubt Harbaugh will tweak his mechanics to improve on it though.

    Neither Manning or Brady are #1 or #2 all time IMO.
    "There were many ways of not burdening one's conscience, of shunning responsibility, looking away, keeping mum. When the unspeakable truth of the holocaust then became known at the end of the war, all too many of us claimed that they had not known anything about it or even suspected anything."

    - Richard Von Weizsaecker

  10. #70
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    YK ... i've maybe only watched 5 games w/ CK in his Senior Season. All of his scrambling came in Pistol Play-Action. There is a difference between scrambling in that system than in Shotgun or I-Form. In Pro Style scrambling comes from blocking assignments being blown. In college pistol it's more of a bootleg when your second though in progression is run or use run-promise to bring in the Safety. RGIII is a no.2 pick because he was truely a throw first QB.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yellowknifer View Post
    Neither Manning or Brady are #1 or #2 all time IMO.
    The offenses they ran are 100x more complicated than anything pre-1994. Defenses are faster. The Safeties are utilized much more. The run is irrelative in both of their offenses. They both , on average , make 3 reads in a fraction of the time after using 50% of the play clock on pre-snap audibles / blocking. Manning has 5 throws throw that are above and beyond any QB to ever play. His pre-snap has yet to be replicated by any QB and it's been 14 years since he was drafted. Brady makes decisions faster than any QB I've ever seen - and with fewer big name prospects.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by dasher View Post
    The offenses they ran are 100x more complicated than anything pre-1994. Defenses are faster. The Safeties are utilized much more. The run is irrelative in both of their offenses. They both , on average , make 3 reads in a fraction of the time after using 50% of the play clock on pre-snap audibles / blocking. Manning has 5 throws throw that are above and beyond any QB to ever play. His pre-snap has yet to be replicated by any QB and it's been 14 years since he was drafted. Brady makes decisions faster than any QB I've ever seen - and with fewer big name prospects.
    I tend to agree with this, though I think Brady still has some proving to do while Brees is moving up the list quickly. Manning is easily #1 though and you state the reasons very well.
    "Governing doesn’t disappear when government shrinks; instead corporations come to govern your life — like HMO’s, oil companies, drug companies, agribusiness, and so on, with accountability only to maximizing profit, not to public needs." - George Lakoff

  13. #73
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    Interesting thoughts from Merril Hoge on RGIII vs. Luck. He looked great in his pro day.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2c_T...ature=youtu.be

  14. #74
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    http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/story...afted-no-1-nfl

    Reason No 1: Better overall statistics in 2011

    Let's first examine both quarterbacks' statistics against schools from BCS conferences last season (sans Baylor's game against Kansas).

    Robert Griffin III's 2011 statistics vs. BCS schools
    Route Depth Comp Att Yds TD Int Pen Pen Yds YPA
    Short (1-10 yards) 152 179 1460 6 1 0 0 8.2
    Medium (11-19 yards) 38 61 673 3 1 3 -9 10.4
    Deep (20-29 yards) 9 15 365 2 1 1 15 23.8
    Bomb (30+ yards) 17 33 765 13 1 2 30 22.7
    Other (throwaways, etc.) 2 24 89 1 1 0 0 3.7
    Total 218 312 3352 25 5 6 36 10.7
    Vertical (11+ yards) 64 109 1803 18 3 6 36 16.0
    Stretch Vertical (20+ yards) 26 48 1130 15 2 3 45 23.0
    Andrew Luck's 2011 statistics vs. BCS schools
    Route Depth Comp Att Yds TD Int Pen Pen Yds YPA
    Short (1-10 yards) 203 242 1669 17 6 2 -7 6.8
    Medium (11-19 yards) 39 64 692 11 2 1 10 10.8
    Deep (20-29 yards) 26 44 843 7 0 2 25 18.9
    Bomb (30+ yards) 2 16 115 1 1 1 15 7.6
    Other (throwaways, etc.) 0 12 0 0 1 0 0 0.0
    Total 270 378 3319 36 10 6 43 8.8
    Vertical (11+ yards) 67 124 1650 19 3 4 50 13.3
    Stretch Vertical (20+ yards) 28 60 958 8 1 3 40 15.8
    This is the main reason Heisman Trophy voters chose Griffin III over Luck by a wide margin last year. RG3 crushed Luck in yards per attempt (YPA) and also bested him in completion percentage (72.4 to 71.3) and passer rating (189.5 to 169.7). Griffin III's 37-6 touchdown/interception ratio for the full season was also slightly better than Luck's 37-10 showing in those categories.

    Reason No. 2: Better vertical statistics

    Part of what gave Griffin III the statistical lead over Luck was a huge advantage on short passes (8.2 YPA vs. 6.8 YPA), but where he really stood out was in the area of vertical passing.

    Luck had a slight edge in medium pass YPA, but RG3 bested him in deep, bomb, vertical and stretch vertical YPA -- and did so by significant margins in each category.

  15. #75
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    More from the article.

    Reason No. 3: RG3 had better stats when not throwing to his top target

    Some have argued that the reason Griffin III had better downfield numbers is because he was able to throw to Kendall Wright, a speed merchant whom Mel Kiper and Todd McShay both have listed as a late first-rounder in their most recent mock drafts.

    The issue in taking this tack is that Griffin III actually had better vertical numbers when throwing to someone other than Wright last year.

    RG3's vertical numbers on passes to Wright: 45 targets, 693 yards, 15.4 vertical YPA (VYPA)

    RG3's vertical numbers on passes to other players: 70 targets, 1,146 yards, 16.4 VYPA

    Luck was the exact opposite in that his vertical totals dropped off dramatically when not throwing to his best vertical target (tight end Coby Fleener):

    Luck's vertical numbers on passes to Fleener: 29 targets, 533 yards, 18.4 VYPA

    Luck's vertical numbers on passes to other players: 99 vertical targets, 1,167 yards, 11.8 VYPA

    Reason No. 4: Nearly equal decision-making skills

    The book on Luck is that he is much more advanced in the area of game management, but he and Griffin III were actually nearly equal in the bad decision rate (BDR) metric.

    This statistic measures how often a quarterback makes a mental error with the ball that leads either to a turnover or a near-turnover such as a dropped interception.

    Luck tallied a 2.9 percent BDR last season while RG3 racked up a 3.1 percent BDR. Both of those numbers are well below the 3.5 percent BDR rate that is considered par for the collegiate course.

    Reason No. 5: Tougher competition

    Last year RG3 faced three teams that ranked in the top 30 in the FBS in passer rating allowed in 2011, and two of those teams (the Texas Longhorns and Oklahoma State Cowboys) had exceptionally strong starting cornerback batteries.

    By contrast, Luck faced only one team (the Utah Utes) that ranked in the top 30 in passer rating allowed last year.

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