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  1. #46
    Goose31 is offline We beat the Giants' asses
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulu Bak View Post
    My primary concern with joining this go round was the player rankings, since they weren't posted before hand, and after seeing them, I see that my concerns were justified. I can appreciate the difficulty of quantitatively ranking players, and the effort being invested in doing such, but a lot of these rankings simply don't even make sense at face value. Here's a few examples:

    1) Despite being relatively weak against the run, Dwight Freeney has a run D score that is higher than almost every other active DE, including 3-4DEs like Ty Warren and Justin Smith.
    2) The RAC scores in general don't make much sense, but one score that really sticks out is Bobby Mitchell having a RAC score of 6. How is that even possible? That was his entire game, and he was damn good at it (he was in NFL.com's top 10 most elusive runners of all-time). Then I look at some of the guys with higher RAC scores, and quite a few of them were old school receivers that ran fly routes 90% of the time. I'm guessing the RAC score is somehow a reflection of YPC, which is flawed; although, that may reflect a limitation of the program you're using to run the sims?
    3) Curly Culp (vs Ted Washington and low rush D score). I can only assume this is a reflection of the problem with using GP as a measure.
    4) La'Roi Glover (I noticed this somewhat by accident when examining Culp vs peers). I'm not sure which I have more issue with, him being ranked as the 18th best DT of all-time (ahead of Culp no less), or that his run D is a 7 and his rush D is a 2.
    You are completely welcome to walk away from this Xulu. No one is forcing you to play.

    As I've mentioned numerous times before, this system is going to be somewhat flawed. The sim only allows for very few characteristics for which to grade these players. The defensive line, for example, allows grades for Run Defense and Rush Defense only. And within those categories they can only be ranked 1-9. Therefore a player ranked high (such as Freeney at #20 overall) will have more points to distribute than a guy like Trevor Pryce #39 overall. So even if I max out Freeney as a Pass Rusher, he is still going to have some points available and the only place to put them is in the Run Stuffing category. It doesnt accurately reflect his game, I get it. But there was no other option. So yes, you are correct that its not accurate. But that's the way this game is set up.

    As for Bobby Mitchell, yes the sim bases his RAC on YPC. I also agree that's not really a reflection of RAC. But again, that's just the way this is. It should probably be renamed something different. Mitchell's YPC was 15.27, which was nothing special. Ranks him 76th out of the 144 players ranked. So, that's the ranking there.

  2. #47
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    Xulu, if you're backing out let us know so we can quickly find a replacement. I believe we can get one quickly....one of Child Please's friends just activated his KFFL accnt and was wanting to do this.
    What we've got here is failure to communicate....some men you just can't reach

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goose31 View Post
    I certainly think he needs to be added. But he's not going to be all that high. These rankings are based on careers not the past three years.
    He's been the best 3-4 end in the league the past 3 years. Before that he was a good 4-3 DE.

    Rank him as you will, but he's definitely a lot higher than a number of guys you have ranked pretty high on that list on yours IMO. I'd put him behind Pryce (probably ahead of some ahead of him and behind some behind him).
    "There were many ways of not burdening one's conscience, of shunning responsibility, looking away, keeping mum. When the unspeakable truth of the holocaust then became known at the end of the war, all too many of us claimed that they had not known anything about it or even suspected anything."

    - Richard Von Weizsaecker

  4. #49
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    Hey Goose, can you give us a heads up on any changes you plan on making from the suggestions so far?
    Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

    Joseph Palmi: Let me ask you something... we Italians, we got our families, and we got the church; the Irish, they have the homeland, Jews their tradition; even the niggers, they got their music. What about you people, Mr. Wilson, what do you have?

    Edward Wilson: The United States of America. The rest of you are just visiting.

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
    -George Orwell

  5. #50
    Goose31 is offline We beat the Giants' asses
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkItAZero! View Post
    Hey Goose, can you give us a heads up on any changes you plan on making from the suggestions so far?
    * I realized last minute that I had some new categories in this year's game for HB/FBs so I'm making those updates tonight and should be able to post those rankings by tomorrow at the latest.
    * I need to make a few tweaks to Quarterbacks, and should be able to post by Friday if not sooner.
    * I was going to add Justin Smith at DE and give another look at Vince Wilfork as many have suggested he might be too low.

    Have I missed anything?

    UPDATE:
    * Re-work the rankings for OL/DL so that DL dont have an advantage with higher rankings.
    Last edited by Goose31; 11-02-2011 at 08:09 PM.

  6. #51
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    Any tweaks to the OL/DL as we've talked about? Even minor tweaks for some of the lower end 10's on the DL is what i'm thinking of.
    Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

    Joseph Palmi: Let me ask you something... we Italians, we got our families, and we got the church; the Irish, they have the homeland, Jews their tradition; even the niggers, they got their music. What about you people, Mr. Wilson, what do you have?

    Edward Wilson: The United States of America. The rest of you are just visiting.

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
    -George Orwell

  7. #52
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    Also, is there any way you can have the rankings done by tomorrow at the latest? That way we have a few days to look over RB's and QB's. Draft could start Monday.
    Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

    Joseph Palmi: Let me ask you something... we Italians, we got our families, and we got the church; the Irish, they have the homeland, Jews their tradition; even the niggers, they got their music. What about you people, Mr. Wilson, what do you have?

    Edward Wilson: The United States of America. The rest of you are just visiting.

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
    -George Orwell

  8. #53
    Goose31 is offline We beat the Giants' asses
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    There has been some talk about linemen from back in the day being able to play with guys from today's game. We've had numerous discussions about this and I can certainly see both sides. Obviously a guy who weights 210 is not going to be able to block a 340 lb defender no matter how good his technique is. I think I've done a good job in acconting for this in the rankings.

    Someone used Centers as an example so I will do the same. The first really light guy on the list doesnt appear until #37 when Hall of Famer Alex Wojciechowicz shows up. All 217 lbs of him. You will notice that all of the HoF Centers are in the Top 10 with the exception of Alex W, Frank Gatski (#25 - 233 lbs), and George Trafton (#34 - 230 lbs.) I've intentionally penalized those guys due to their size. Keep in mind you could also argue that with today's supplements and training that a 6-2, 233 lb frame like Gatski's could become a 6-2, 292 lb frame like Jeff Saturday. That seems reasonable to me.

    So although I'm penalizing those guys I'm not discounting them altogether. My #3 ranked Center is 6-2, 225 lb Mel Hein. He was a 5 x All-Pro (same as Mike Webster), Hall of Famer, All Decade teamer, 75th Anniversary team (again, along with Miek Webster), and the highest ranked Center (above Mike Webster) on the NFL Network's Top 100 list. You can't tell me that a guy with all those credentials couldnt play in today's game with the same advantages as today's players. He could add the muscle and be just as effective in my opinion, and the opinion of many people in the know.

  9. #54
    Goose31 is offline We beat the Giants' asses
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkItAZero! View Post
    Any tweaks to the OL/DL as we've talked about? Even minor tweaks for some of the lower end 10's on the DL is what i'm thinking of.
    Oh, yep, sorry I missed that one. I will definitely do that.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiveUp2122 View Post
    Xulu, if you're backing out let us know so we can quickly find a replacement. I believe we can get one quickly....one of Child Please's friends just activated his KFFL accnt and was wanting to do this.
    I wasn't planning on backing out, but I am in the process of moving, so if you have someone that wants to play, then feel free to have them replace me. It would certainly be easier for me, and give someone new a chance to participate.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulu Bak View Post
    I wasn't planning on backing out, but I am in the process of moving, so if you have someone that wants to play, then feel free to have them replace me. It would certainly be easier for me, and give someone new a chance to participate.
    If you're up for it I'd rather you stay in since you are a regular here and my nemesis! ;)
    What we've got here is failure to communicate....some men you just can't reach

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulu Bak View Post
    I wasn't planning on backing out, but I am in the process of moving, so if you have someone that wants to play, then feel free to have them replace me. It would certainly be easier for me, and give someone new a chance to participate.
    Stick around XB! You're the regular and a good person to have involved.
    Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

    Joseph Palmi: Let me ask you something... we Italians, we got our families, and we got the church; the Irish, they have the homeland, Jews their tradition; even the niggers, they got their music. What about you people, Mr. Wilson, what do you have?

    Edward Wilson: The United States of America. The rest of you are just visiting.

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
    -George Orwell

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goose31 View Post
    There has been some talk about linemen from back in the day being able to play with guys from today's game. We've had numerous discussions about this and I can certainly see both sides. Obviously a guy who weights 210 is not going to be able to block a 340 lb defender no matter how good his technique is. I think I've done a good job in acconting for this in the rankings.

    Someone used Centers as an example so I will do the same. The first really light guy on the list doesnt appear until #37 when Hall of Famer Alex Wojciechowicz shows up. All 217 lbs of him. You will notice that all of the HoF Centers are in the Top 10 with the exception of Alex W, Frank Gatski (#25 - 233 lbs), and George Trafton (#34 - 230 lbs.) I've intentionally penalized those guys due to their size. Keep in mind you could also argue that with today's supplements and training that a 6-2, 233 lb frame like Gatski's could become a 6-2, 292 lb frame like Jeff Saturday. That seems reasonable to me.

    So although I'm penalizing those guys I'm not discounting them altogether. My #3 ranked Center is 6-2, 225 lb Mel Hein. He was a 5 x All-Pro (same as Mike Webster), Hall of Famer, All Decade teamer, 75th Anniversary team (again, along with Miek Webster), and the highest ranked Center (above Mike Webster) on the NFL Network's Top 100 list. You can't tell me that a guy with all those credentials couldnt play in today's game with the same advantages as today's players. He could add the muscle and be just as effective in my opinion, and the opinion of many people in the know.
    http://www.49ers.com/media-gallery/v...1-441f13df86d3

    Old timer talking (fast forward to around the 12:30 mark) about how most guys could never play in todays NFL and how much more talented, big and athletic guys are compared to then (he didn't say all, but he did emphasize the overwhelming majority).

    Alex Wojciechowicz - HOF or not, he's never playing in todays NFL at C (and probably not anywhere else either although maybe he'd be a decent blocking FB if he has some speed).
    "There were many ways of not burdening one's conscience, of shunning responsibility, looking away, keeping mum. When the unspeakable truth of the holocaust then became known at the end of the war, all too many of us claimed that they had not known anything about it or even suspected anything."

    - Richard Von Weizsaecker

  14. #59
    Goose31 is offline We beat the Giants' asses
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yellowknifer View Post
    Alex Wojciechowicz - HOF or not, he's never playing in todays NFL at C (and probably not anywhere else either although maybe he'd be a decent blocking FB if he has some speed).
    According to the rankings he would be a third stringer in our league. With the roster sizes of our teams, he has no shot at being drafted. Is this really a conversation you want to continue?

  15. #60
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    Terrell Suggs should be a little higher IMO. I feel like his pass rushing ability should be a 9 and his run d should definitely be higher than a 1. At least a 3 or 4. This is considering him as a DE and not an OLB. Maybe he should be rated as an OLB and as a DE and his ranking could be different based on the position?
    What we've got here is failure to communicate....some men you just can't reach

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