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  1. #196
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    Yeah we had the long discussion last year about whether or not Ramos should be traded. And the people who said probably not because Mauer's days behind the plate are numbered might have been correct. So can Joe play 2nd???

    This really should be the final straw IMO. He has to get out from the catching duties so that we can keep his bat in the line up everyday starting either this or next season. Catching is simply taking too much out of him overall and his bat is suffering the last couple of years because of it. The problem being is that now we don't have the catcher who can take over full time for him.

    Of course because he is a little limited on where he can play (I don't think he could play 2nd), it might be what precipitates a trade of Morneau (which would be really hard to stomach).
    Last edited by ducky; 04-15-2011 at 06:36 PM.

  2. #197
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    Depends what you get for Morneau of course. The thing is, though obviously Mauer's bat plays at 1B, its not near the advantage it is at C. To me, ideally he'd play 3B. I know you have Valencia, but is he good enough to get in Mauer's way? I'd also add that I do agree that losing Ramos long term could hurt pretty bad. I just don't think its a big deal right now with Joe being on the 15 day DL. The sky is falling!
    "Governing doesn’t disappear when government shrinks; instead corporations come to govern your life — like HMO’s, oil companies, drug companies, agribusiness, and so on, with accountability only to maximizing profit, not to public needs." - George Lakoff

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    Is it that simple though? Do you make the playoffs last year without Capps? Capps only has one year left on his deal and Crain and Guerrier got multi-year deals as middle relievers, which Minny might not have given out. That was probably part of why they got Capps, a guy with an extra year left. Also I don't think they'd have wanted Crain or Guerrier to close if Nathan ended up not being ready. It was a steep price to pay, but most teams don't have legit starters waiting around to replace their stars when they get injured. That's a big luxury and though it would be nice, I don't see it as the difference in whether Minny contends or not this year.
    Yes, I think it is that simple...and yes we still make the playoffs last year without Capps. I didn't like the trade at the time, and without Capps and his salary, we could have afforded one of our FA relievers that went away.

    It was always a short sighted trade when you consider the higher level factors at play, that include Mauer's injury history and contract, Ramos' potential, and the general difficulty in finding good catchers.

    You are correct though, it is a luxury to have a player like Ramos waiting behind Mauer...and it was a situation that we should not have rid ourselves of so quickly.
    "We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be."
    -Kurt Vonnegut "Mother Night"

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by ducky View Post
    Of course because he is a little limited on where he can play (I don't think he could play 2nd), it might be what precipitates a trade of Morneau (which would be really hard to stomach).
    Why would we have to trade Morneau? That is also very short-sighted. We can just as easily get rid of Kubel and Thome. Mauer and Morneau as the 1b and DH.
    "We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be."
    -Kurt Vonnegut "Mother Night"

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    I'd also add that I do agree that losing Ramos long term could hurt pretty bad. I just don't think its a big deal right now with Joe being on the 15 day DL. The sky is falling!
    It is a bad trade now, it was bad when it happened, and it will be bad in the future when Mauer is moved to another position and we don't have a decent C on the roster.
    "We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be."
    -Kurt Vonnegut "Mother Night"

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fandango View Post
    Why would we have to trade Morneau? That is also very short-sighted. We can just as easily get rid of Kubel and Thome. Mauer and Morneau as the 1b and DH.
    DH is a position that is reserved for guys that can hit but can't field. Mauer and Morneau don't fall into that catagory. I can't imagine either one of them being willing to only bat for a full season either.

    A Morneau trade is likely at some point (we likely can't afford two guys making over $20 mil per) and my guess has always been that when Morneau leaves is when they finally move Joe out from catcher. Justin is under contract for just 2 more seasons after this so he likely was only going to be here for one more season after this one anyway unless they do plan on extending him and paying out almost $50 million a year to just two players. But I find it highly unlikely that they ever planned on doing that.

    There are certain realities that all teams face at one point or another and the Twins reality is that it would very difficult to keep the M & M boys for their whole career and be able to field a capable team around them. Maybe they plan on trying to pull it off but it would be very difficult to field a competative team when almost half of your money is going to just two players.

    If they do plan on keeping Morneau, maybe Joe could play a corner outfield spot??? Certainly has enough arm for it and he really wouldn't have any less range than say Cuddyer does now.

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fandango View Post
    Yes, I think it is that simple...and yes we still make the playoffs last year without Capps. I didn't like the trade at the time, and without Capps and his salary, we could have afforded one of our FA relievers that went away.

    It was always a short sighted trade when you consider the higher level factors at play, that include Mauer's injury history and contract, Ramos' potential, and the general difficulty in finding good catchers.

    You are correct though, it is a luxury to have a player like Ramos waiting behind Mauer...and it was a situation that we should not have rid ourselves of so quickly.
    I'm fine with saying that you wouldn't have gotten rid of Ramos specifically, but the rest of the things you say here are simply not factual and you are way too sure of them for no reason IMO. COULD Minny have afforded Crain/Guerrier. Sure, they could have. Would they have given them multi year deals to be 7th inning guys for them, which is what they are ideally(or even if they saw them as 8th inning guys for that matter), we don't know, but my guess is no. Have they ever given a middle reliever a multi year deal for substantial money?? The statement Yes, we would have made the playoffs without Capps is also simply not factual. They might have, they might not have, but Capps gave them a better shot. Rausch was struggling and they didn't know yet that the rest of the pen would get so hot down the stretch. Also you could argue that the pen got hot because everyone got put in the right role. Move everyone up and maybe have Crain or someone closing and everyone else up a spot and you don't know how that affects you.
    "Governing doesn’t disappear when government shrinks; instead corporations come to govern your life — like HMO’s, oil companies, drug companies, agribusiness, and so on, with accountability only to maximizing profit, not to public needs." - George Lakoff

  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by ducky View Post

    A Morneau trade is likely at some point (we likely can't afford two guys making over $20 mil per)
    Another thing I routinely get killed for saying around here. Look, nobody is sayign the Twins are still small market, but on a 100 million payroll, which is probalby ideal for their market, 40% to 2 players is tough to justify, especially with both having injury histories. I'm not saying trade Morneau tomorrow, but at some point its going to have to be discussed. I think they may end up re-signing Cuddyer, as he seems like a Twin for life type to me and is cheaper and right handed, letting Kubel walk eventually and dealing Morneau. You'll get a really nice package around him to help you fill in the blanks. You know Mauer isn't going anywhere and like you said, neither of the M and M boys probably wants to DH. The Twins are very smart with resource management and I just don't see them keeping Morneau long term for big money when for the same amount of resources they coudl have something like Cuddyer,Liriano and 3 strong prospects frmo another team.

    I still would try to avoid Mauer at 1B though if possible. Not sure if 3B is an option like I said before and I could also see RF being possible.
    "Governing doesn’t disappear when government shrinks; instead corporations come to govern your life — like HMO’s, oil companies, drug companies, agribusiness, and so on, with accountability only to maximizing profit, not to public needs." - George Lakoff

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by ducky View Post
    DH is a position that is reserved for guys that can hit but can't field. Mauer and Morneau don't fall into that catagory. I can't imagine either one of them being willing to only bat for a full season either.
    I can't imagine either one caring that much as long as the team is winning.

    FTR, I think that Mauer is fully capable of playing a corner OF spot as well...or at 3b for that matter.
    "We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be."
    -Kurt Vonnegut "Mother Night"

  10. #205
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    Even before the Mauer injury I was already thinking ahead to an eventual Morneau trade in the next few years. If we are going to trade him, which I do think is likely at SOME point, the most likely time would be after next season when he has one year left on his current deal. But like I said...maybe moving Mauer out from behind catcher speeds that clock up a little. I really have no idea either way.

    Part of the reason that I asked seahawksfan837 about how Smoak was looking was the idea that someday we might want to send Justin back closer to home.

    We COULD afford to keep them both. There is no doubt of that. But it would certainly cost us in other areas. I have NO IDEA what the Twins will do in this case but this situation will come to a head at some point. And if you want to a comparison to how much Justin will cost to extend you don't have to look any further than the A-Gon contract that was just signed.

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    Another thing I routinely get killed for saying around here.
    That's just because we like picking on the Tiger's fan. ; )

    Speaking of trading players that are leaving....what are the chances of the Tiger's moving Valverde??? I read a thing today that they might move him quickly if they fall out of the race. I like your younger relievers but if I were you, I would be clamoring to keep Jose for AT LEAST another season. He's looks like a crazy man on the mound but I have always been impressed with his stuff.
    Last edited by ducky; 04-15-2011 at 09:49 PM.

  12. #207
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    This team is going nowhere. There are at least 2 black holes in the lineup for the forseeable future and the rest of the trash is not hitting at all.

    The Twins don't need to worry about salary. Between Cuddyer, Nathan, etc they can easily dump $20M. That doesn't even include crap like Baker.

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by ducky View Post
    That's just because we like picking on the Tiger's fan. ; )

    Speaking of trading players that are leaving....what are the chances of the Tiger's moving Valverde??? I read a thing today that they might move him quickly if they fall out of the race. I like your younger relievers but if I were you, I would be clamoring to keep Jose for AT LEAST another season. He's looks like a crazy man on the mound but I have always been impressed with his stuff.
    I love Valverde, but with Benoit signed long term and all the resources they have put into young relievers, I imagine Valverde would/could be dealt if we weren't in contention. Hopefully it doesn't come to that though! haha. He's a free agent after the year and if he has a good season, he'll get a solid 3/20-25 mil type deal I'd imagine. I don't think 1 more year is an option

    BTW, I'm not really as sensitive as I pretend to be ;)
    "Governing doesn’t disappear when government shrinks; instead corporations come to govern your life — like HMO’s, oil companies, drug companies, agribusiness, and so on, with accountability only to maximizing profit, not to public needs." - George Lakoff

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoViking View Post
    This team is going nowhere. There are at least 2 black holes in the lineup for the forseeable future and the rest of the trash is not hitting at all.

    The Twins don't need to worry about salary. Between Cuddyer, Nathan, etc they can easily dump $20M. That doesn't even include crap like Baker.
    Definitely not worried about salary, but where will they alot it and how will they maximize resources. I'm not paying Morneau 20 mil personally.
    "Governing doesn’t disappear when government shrinks; instead corporations come to govern your life — like HMO’s, oil companies, drug companies, agribusiness, and so on, with accountability only to maximizing profit, not to public needs." - George Lakoff

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
    I'm not paying Morneau 20 mil personally.
    And neither are the Twins for that matter. He is getting $15m this year, and $14m each of the next two.

    http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/minnesota...ustin-morneau/

    Getting rid of him and keeping Cuddyer would be straight up stupid.
    "We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be."
    -Kurt Vonnegut "Mother Night"

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