Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 35
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    10,552

    Drug companies vs supplement industry?

    Okay,

    For years now I have bought and consumed many supplements and read countless scientific articles on studies for both prescription medicine and herbal supplements. After doing searching online, it's clear to me that there are entities in the drug company arena that seek to submarine/undermine the nutritional supplement industry.

    I'll make a case here for supplements and show how the big pharma industry is offering virtually identical prescription remedies.

    First and most importantly, heart health.

    The pharma industry's big drugs:
    Lipid profile improvement drugs:
    Statin based drugs like Lipitor
    Lipid based drug like Lovaza

    The supplement industry's hearth health products:
    Red Yeast Rice
    CoQ10
    Resveratrol
    Fish Oil

    What is the difference between these products/drugs? NOTHING! Red Yeast Rice is a naturally occurring chemical that curiously looks like a statin drug under chemical analysis:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_yeast_rice

    The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) position is that red yeast rice products that contain monacolin K, i.e., lovastatin, are identical to a drug and thus subject to regulation as a drug. In 1998, the FDA initiated action to ban a product (Cholestin) containing red yeast rice extract.

    The FDA's attempt failed and the drug company's attempt to patent a naturally occurring substance that has been used as a supplement for centuries failed too. I submit the accusation here and now that statin drugs developed by drug companies weren't an accidental discovery. They KNEW Red Yeast Rice's effects on cholesterol and attempted to patent it and submarine the supplement industry in court so they could have the profit for themselves. It FAILED but you don't hear ANY news media on the subject and can only find scant articles online if you dig.

    Big pharma is still at it.

    Red wine? Resveratrol. Showing in studies to switch on the Sirtuin-1 gene which extends life span, incredibly improves heart health and lipid profiles as well as staves off age related diseases such as diabetes. The big pharma companies are researching sirtuin-1 gene switching drugs based off of, you guessed it, Resveratrol. A supplement you can buy NOW and take NOW to get all the benefits that future "drugs" are going to give you in 20 years when all their "research" and "chemical alterations" are done so they can patent what is already available.

    Fish oil? After years of the major drug companies trying to use media propaganda in the 1990's to tell people fish oil/omega-3 fats weren't proven to do anything for health, are now having to accept proven clinical studies that it indeed prevents and treats major hearth health conditions as well as dramatically improving lipid profiles and also cleans arteries of plaque.

    CoQ10? Again, this is the chemical your body naturally produces to fuel your heart. It must be taken with statin drugs to maintain proper levels of energy for your heart to beat.

    The big pharma industry isn't just stopping there. Let's focus now on prostate reduction therapy, which of course is also tied to hair loss reduction:

    The drug industry's medication for prostate reduction:
    Avodart
    Propecia

    The supplement company's offering for prostate health:
    Nettle Root
    Saw Palmetto
    Beta-sitosterol

    The mechanism of action? DHT inihibitors. BOTH Avodart AND the listed supplements inhibit DHT production. BUT Nettle Root offers an even more awesome addition which is as an SHGB competitor and estrogen anti-aromatase inhibitor! The great benefit? Reduction of DHT, reduction of estrogen (increased estrogen is a major problem in aging men), and an increase of free testosterone! This has the effect of improving muscle mass, skin elasticity, youthful vigor. However, DHT is a big part of sex drive, so there can be a side effect of decrease sex drive. DHT is testosterone, but it's the testosterone that promotes agressiveness, sex drive, body hair and hair loss. The standard testosterone is more responsible for muscle growth and tissue regeneration. Nettle Root is more gentle than a brute force DHT inhibitor and has several important factors that lend improvement in prostate reduction. I recommend Nettle Root for every man over 30 years of age, period, especially men over 40.

    Items that the drug industry have yet to make drugs to emulate but the supplement industry ALREADY offers you for improved health:

    Antioxidant supplements such as Resveratrol, Astaxanthin, Quercetin, N-Acetal Cystein and various drink mixes which contain many combinations of these awesome antioxidants. Herbs such as Milk Thistle & Tribulus.

    The benefits of these antioxidants include:

    Resveratrol = Cellular life extention, postponement of aging diseases due to organ failures such as diabetes & heart disease & circulatory/arterial strength, improved skin elasticity, improved physical endurance, improved immune system health.

    N-Acetal Cystein = Lung health promotion and lung function improvement. Already doctors are starting to prescribe this for treatment of asthma and other lung diseases.

    Astaxanthin = Improved endurance, youthful skin with better eslasticity, improved immune system response, improved free radical removal.

    Milk Thistle = Liver cleanser and liver detoxifier and liver protectant.

    Tribulus = Hormone promotion and fertility enhancer. Studies using pure form tribulus as found with the Sopharma and Thermolife brands show increased hormone production and also have shown increased sperm activity and increased sperm count in men. For men with low sperm counts and low sperm activity, tribulus could be used by doctors as a male fertility treatment.

    The list goes on and on and you can bet that the drug companies are going to be patenting and advertising their own versions of these same substances to treat these same conditions that these supplements ALREADY help. Also, when taken responsibly, most of these supplements have no known side effects (except POSSIBLY mild sex drive reduction in the case of DHT inhibitors like Nettle Root and the need to take CoQ10 with Red Yeast Rice).

    When someone actually bothers to educate themselves on supplements and their fantastic potential on our health, it's no wonder the drug industry constantly wants to lobby to sneak in legislation to limit, control, eliminate the supplement companies. They are direct competition for the most popular current drugs and even FUTURE drugs that are being developed right now.

    Here is a list of supplements that I take daily and recommend every man over 30 to take regularly to enhance their quality of life for decades to come:

    Antioxidants/cellular protection:
    Resveratrol (for life extention and improved physical endurance)
    Astaxanthin (for promoting youthful cellular activity)
    N-Acetyl Cystein (I use this to treat my asthma now)

    Overall health:
    Omega-3 fish oil (10 years ago, I tested and showed a terrible lipid profile, they wanted to put me on drugs, after taking omega-3 fish oil for a few years, my profile is consistently perfect now)
    Vitamin-D (my male family members have all tested to have deficiencies in vitamin-D, so I have started on this recently)
    Subligual Vitamin-B12 (my male family members have all tested to have deficiencies in vitamin-B12, so I have started on this recently)
    CoQ10 - (for heart energy to enhance fitness and exercise endurance)

    Hormonal control:
    Tribulus - Thermolife's Tribosten (to enhance my testosterone and hormonal levels)
    Nettle Root - (for prostate health and to keep my estrogen low, free testosterone high and to reduce hair loss)
    Last edited by thelittlecheese; 10-16-2010 at 06:12 PM.
    As defined by the Official Terrorism Training For Law Enforcement:
    What Is Domestic Terrorism?
    Extreme force and violence perpetrated by
    the people government of a country, within that country,
    for the purpose of coercing its government and population public
    into modifying its behavior"

    You are either with Our Constitution or you are with The Terrorists!

    Government...if it leans to the left it eventually means theft. - tlc

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    ATL
    Posts
    9,148
    I take resveratrol and pharmaceuical grade fish oil everyday.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Promised Land
    Posts
    37,464
    Quote Originally Posted by thelittlecheese View Post
    Okay,

    For years now I have bought and consumed many supplements and read countless scientific articles on studies for both prescription medicine and herbal supplements. After doing searching online, it's clear to me that there are entities in the drug company arena that seek to submarine/undermine the nutritional supplement industry.

    I'll make a case here for supplements and show how the big pharma industry is offering virtually identical prescription remedies.

    First and most importantly, heart health.

    The pharma industry's big drugs:
    Lipid profile improvement drugs:
    Statin based drugs like Lipitor
    Lipid based drug like Lovaza

    The supplement industry's hearth health products:
    Red Yeast Rice
    CoQ10
    Resveratrol
    Fish Oil

    What is the difference between these products/drugs? NOTHING! Red Yeast Rice is a naturally occurring chemical that curiously looks like a statin drug under chemical analysis:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_yeast_rice

    The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) position is that red yeast rice products that contain monacolin K, i.e., lovastatin, are identical to a drug and thus subject to regulation as a drug. In 1998, the FDA initiated action to ban a product (Cholestin) containing red yeast rice extract.

    The FDA's attempt failed and the drug company's attempt to patent a naturally occurring substance that has been used as a supplement for centuries failed too. I submit the accusation here and now that statin drugs developed by drug companies weren't an accidental discovery. They KNEW Red Yeast Rice's effects on cholesterol and attempted to patent it and submarine the supplement industry in court so they could have the profit for themselves. It FAILED but you don't hear ANY news media on the subject and can only find scant articles online if you dig.

    Big pharma is still at it.

    Red wine? Resveratrol. Showing in studies to switch on the Sirtuin-1 gene which extends life span, incredibly improves heart health and lipid profiles as well as staves off age related diseases such as diabetes. The big pharma companies are researching sirtuin-1 gene switching drugs based off of, you guessed it, Resveratrol. A supplement you can buy NOW and take NOW to get all the benefits that future "drugs" are going to give you in 20 years when all their "research" and "chemical alterations" are done so they can patent what is already available.

    Fish oil? After years of the major drug companies trying to use media propaganda in the 1990's to tell people fish oil/omega-3 fats weren't proven to do anything for health, are now having to accept proven clinical studies that it indeed prevents and treats major hearth health conditions as well as dramatically improving lipid profiles and also cleans arteries of plaque.

    CoQ10? Again, this is the chemical your body naturally produces to fuel your heart. It must be taken with statin drugs to maintain proper levels of energy for your heart to beat.

    The big pharma industry isn't just stopping there. Let's focus now on prostate reduction therapy, which of course is also tied to hair loss reduction:

    The drug industry's medication for prostate reduction:
    Avodart
    Propecia

    The supplement company's offering for prostate health:
    Nettle Root
    Saw Palmetto
    Beta-sitosterol

    The mechanism of action? DHT inihibitors. BOTH Avodart AND the listed supplements inhibit DHT production. BUT Nettle Root offers an even more awesome addition which is as an SHGB competitor and estrogen anti-aromatase inhibitor! The great benefit? Reduction of DHT, reduction of estrogen (increased estrogen is a major problem in aging men), and an increase of free testosterone! This has the effect of improving muscle mass, skin elasticity, youthful vigor. However, DHT is a big part of sex drive, so there can be a side effect of decrease sex drive. DHT is testosterone, but it's the testosterone that promotes agressiveness, sex drive, body hair and hair loss. The standard testosterone is more responsible for muscle growth and tissue regeneration. Nettle Root is more gentle than a brute force DHT inhibitor and has several important factors that lend improvement in prostate reduction. I recommend Nettle Root for every man over 30 years of age, period, especially men over 40.

    Items that the drug industry have yet to make drugs to emulate but the supplement industry ALREADY offers you for improved health:

    Antioxidant supplements such as Resveratrol, Astaxanthin, Quercetin, N-Acetal Cystein and various drink mixes which contain many combinations of these awesome antioxidants. Herbs such as Milk Thistle, Tribulus,

    The benefits of these antioxidants include:

    Resveratrol = Cellular life extention, postponement of aging diseases due to organ failures such as diabetes & heart disease & circulatory/arterial strength, improved skin elasticity, improved physical endurance, improve immune system health.

    N-Acetal Cystein = Lung health promotion and lung function improvement. Already doctors are starting to prescribe this for treatment of asthma and other lung diseases.

    Astaxanthin = Improved endurance, youthful skin with better eslasticity, improve immune system response, improved free radical removal.

    Milk Thistle = Liver cleanser and liver detoxifier and liver protectant.

    Tribulus = Hormone promotion and fertility enhancer. Studies using pure form tribulus as found with the Sopharma and Thermolife brands show increased hormone production and also have shown increased sperm activity and increased sperm count in men. For men with low sperm counts and low sperm activity, tribulus could be used by doctors as a male fertility treatment.

    The list goes on and on and you can bet that the drug companies are going to be patenting and advertising their own versions of these same substances to treat these same conditions that these supplements ALREADY help. Also, when taken responsibly, most of these supplements have no known side effects (except POSSIBLY mild sex drive reduction in the case of DHT inhibitors like Nettle Root and the need to take CoQ10 with Red Yeast Rice).

    When someone actually bothers to educate themselves on supplements and their fantastic potential on our health, it's no wonder the drug industry constantly wants to lobby to sneak in legislation to limit, control, eliminate the supplement companies. They are direct competition for the most popular current drugs and even FUTURE drugs that are being developed right now.
    Are you a chemist? I research and take some supplements and avoid prescription drugs if possible, but i don't believe they are the same thing, nor do I have the education to evaluate that.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    3,828
    I know a very prominent research psychiatrist/scientist who has given me some insight to this stuff.

    He suggests many nutritional supplements to his patients including many that you mentioned. He also led a study that wound up showing that St. johns Wort is worthless for depression.


    Anyway dude, nutritional supplement companies are in the business of making money as well. They aren't any more honest and trust worthy than the drug companies.

    A very interesting development is in the arena of "medical foods". For example a "drug" called "deplin" is vitamin B12/Folate in a very bioavailable form that is already broken to l-methlyfolate so that it passes the brain/blood barrier. So far it has been shown to make anti-depressants more effective and now my friend is leading a study to see if it is effective on its own. The theory is that a lot of people have a genetic abnormality that makes it more difficult for them to break down folate in a usable form from food. Folate is a key nutrient for building neurotransmitters involved in mood. Deplin is able to be patented (and hence is technically a "drug") even though it is essentially a super vitamin, because of the method they came up with to make it bio available. I have seen a lot more of these so called "medical foods" out in the market.

    Anyway, most drugs are originally derived from a natural source. Supplement companies aren't any more honest than drug companies and all the good docs find what works and prescribe it, regardless, be they supplements, drugs, generic or patented. And a lot of the supplements sold, no doubt including at least some of what you listed, are most likely worthless.
    Last edited by LeeGenius; 10-16-2010 at 06:22 PM.
    "I despise money" -NoSlowBuffalo-

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    10,552
    I can provide links to the studies that backup my post here if you wish. I will find them and edited my original post to support the information.
    As defined by the Official Terrorism Training For Law Enforcement:
    What Is Domestic Terrorism?
    Extreme force and violence perpetrated by
    the people government of a country, within that country,
    for the purpose of coercing its government and population public
    into modifying its behavior"

    You are either with Our Constitution or you are with The Terrorists!

    Government...if it leans to the left it eventually means theft. - tlc

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    10,552
    Quote Originally Posted by LeeGenius View Post
    I know a very prominent research psychiatrist/scientist who has given me some insight to this stuff.

    He suggests many nutritional supplements to his patients including many that you mentioned. He also led a study that wound up showing that St. johns Wort is worthless for depression.
    YES! Evidence based nutrition is critical if the supplement industry is to effectively compete with the drug companies in promoting health in the public.

    Anyway dude, nutritional supplement companies are in the business of making money as well. They aren't any more honest and trust worthy than the drug companies.
    Yes, they are both profit driven, but the supplement industry in many respects is working double time to evaluate their products to ensure safety and quality because if even a single person dies from their product or becomes ill, it will trigger the government to jump on them with regulations they don't want. Even now the government is just waiting for the supplement industry to screw up and make someone sick, even accidentally or put out a bad batch of something harmful just so they can start regulating the industry and wipe it out so that drug companies have no competition.

    A very interesting development is in the arena of "medical foods". For example a "drug" called "deplin" is vitamin B12/Folate in a very bioavailable form that is already broken to l-methlyfolate so that it passes the brain/blood barrier. So far it has been shown to make anti-depressants more effective and now my friend is leading a study to see if it is effective on its own. The theory is that a lot of people have a genetic abnormality that makes it more difficult for them to break down folate in a usable form from food. Folate is a key nutrient for building neurotransmitters involved in mood. Deplin is able to be patented (and hence is technically a "drug") even though it is essentially a super vitamin, because of the method they came up with to make it bio available. I have seen a lot more of these so called "medical foods" out in the market. [/QUOTE]

    Is it anything like this B12 vitamin supplement that I will be taking as soon as the shipment arrives?
    http://www.swansonvitamins.com/SWU122/ItemDetail

    I found out last week that both my father and younger brother tested to have medically low Vitamin-D & B-12 and they are on pharmacy prescribed vitamins. I am going to take supplements myself rather than go the route of injections and expensive vitamin-D via the pharmacy.
    As defined by the Official Terrorism Training For Law Enforcement:
    What Is Domestic Terrorism?
    Extreme force and violence perpetrated by
    the people government of a country, within that country,
    for the purpose of coercing its government and population public
    into modifying its behavior"

    You are either with Our Constitution or you are with The Terrorists!

    Government...if it leans to the left it eventually means theft. - tlc

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    3,828
    Some of them work. No doubt about it. Fish oil is good for you. I don't know any docs who question this.

    Are they good studies? There were "studies" on St. Johns Wort. Then my friend led a better, more comprehensive study and found it worthless. The study was funded by the makers of Zoloft. FOUL you say? Well they also own thier own St. Johns Wort formula as well. Lots of drug companies themselves have stakes in supplements companies.

    Are there some supplements that are better than drugs? Most likely. Are a ton of the drugs better and more effective than the comparable supplements? Sure.

    My point is that this is not a black/white good/evil issue. It is more complex than that.
    "I despise money" -NoSlowBuffalo-

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Philly Burbs
    Posts
    14,836
    Both are in it for the money. Neither are necessary 90% of the time. But hey, the placebo effect works and it's good for the economy. If you're taking a prescription it's even better for the economy as you'll need something else to fix what it f's up.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    4,870
    so you are saying that prescription drugs are naturally occuring and not bad for me? YK will not be happy about this...
    Go Falcons

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    10,552
    Quote Originally Posted by LeeGenius View Post
    Some of them work. No doubt about it. Fish oil is good for you. I don't know any docs who question this.

    Are they good studies? There were "studies" on St. Johns Wort. Then my friend led a better, more comprehensive study and found it worthless. The study was funded by the makers of Zoloft. FOUL you say? Well they also own thier own St. Johns Wort formula as well. Lots of drug companies themselves have stakes in supplements companies.

    Are there some supplements that are better than drugs? Most likely. Are a ton of the drugs better and more effective than the comparable supplements? Sure.

    My point is that this is not a black/white good/evil issue. It is more complex than that.
    I'm not saying you should avoid using proven medical drugs for serious illness. What I am saying is that people need to educate themselves regarding their health choices and not to necessarily give over power to the government to control what we can use for our health. If given the option, liberals and even some conservatives would take control of the health industry entirely and regulate the hell out of it for their own power and profit.
    As defined by the Official Terrorism Training For Law Enforcement:
    What Is Domestic Terrorism?
    Extreme force and violence perpetrated by
    the people government of a country, within that country,
    for the purpose of coercing its government and population public
    into modifying its behavior"

    You are either with Our Constitution or you are with The Terrorists!

    Government...if it leans to the left it eventually means theft. - tlc

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    16,989
    Bottom line is that supplements don't undergo the same sort of clinical trials nor do they have have to monitor for adverse events once they reach market. What does that mean? Any startup supplement company can make any claim about what they are selling and they don't have to worry about patient safety. It's a crap shoot for the consumer and more often than not, the supplements that are purchased don't live up to the claims simply because nobody is watching over that industry.

    That said, pharma is always looking for the next blockbuster so it makes sense that they would try to jump in on something they see as having the potential to bring in profit. The question that should be asked is whether it is better to but supplements from an industry that has almost no accountability or do you buy medicines that have research and patient safety monitoring to back them up? Ultimately, it comes down to a personal choice.
    Occupying the handicap bathroom stall

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    10,552
    And a lot of the supplements sold, no doubt including ones you listed, are most likely worthless.

    Read more: http://forums.kffl.com/threads/27852...#ixzz12Y35p4wg
    Worthless in what sense? That they can't be used to treat or prevent specific problems common to most men? You would be wrong. There are studies to support the effectiveness of every supplement I listed. Antioxidants of course are optional and only really support cellular health and prevent DNA damage. If you keep your cellular DNA from being damaged, you will age much, much healthier and live much longer. Anyone who tries to deny that simply isn't thinking logically.
    As defined by the Official Terrorism Training For Law Enforcement:
    What Is Domestic Terrorism?
    Extreme force and violence perpetrated by
    the people government of a country, within that country,
    for the purpose of coercing its government and population public
    into modifying its behavior"

    You are either with Our Constitution or you are with The Terrorists!

    Government...if it leans to the left it eventually means theft. - tlc

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    16,989
    Quote Originally Posted by thelittlecheese View Post
    Worthless in what sense? That they can't be used to treat or prevent specific problems common to most men? You would be wrong. There are studies to support the effectiveness of every supplement I listed. Antioxidants of course are optional and only really support cellular health and prevent DNA damage. If you keep your cellular DNA from being damaged, you will age much, much healthier and live much longer. Anyone who tries to deny that simply isn't thinking logically.
    Most, if not all of those studies are worthless. They are not regulated in any way and the supplement makers can set them up however they want to get the results they are looking for. Just because they say "a leading university study...", that means nothing.
    Occupying the handicap bathroom stall

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    10,552
    Quote Originally Posted by mgodbee View Post
    so you are saying that prescription drugs are naturally occuring and not bad for me? YK will not be happy about this...
    I made no claim that drug companies are making "natural" substances. All I'm saying is that they are creating drugs that emulate what natural herbs and plants already do. The public just isn't educated enough about what's available to take advantage. Hell, there are DOCTORS who aren't even knowledgeable about many supplements that can treat health problems.
    As defined by the Official Terrorism Training For Law Enforcement:
    What Is Domestic Terrorism?
    Extreme force and violence perpetrated by
    the people government of a country, within that country,
    for the purpose of coercing its government and population public
    into modifying its behavior"

    You are either with Our Constitution or you are with The Terrorists!

    Government...if it leans to the left it eventually means theft. - tlc

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    10,552
    Quote Originally Posted by Marley View Post
    Most, if not all of those studies are worthless. They are not regulated in any way and the supplement makers can set them up however they want to get the results they are looking for. Just because they say "a leading university study...", that means nothing.
    No, it doesn't mean "nothing". It depends on how that study was conducted and there were more than one study backing ALL the supplements I listed. Not just a single arbitrary result based on poorly selected controls. You need to get your info straight before saying so. The subjects used in a test and the methodology and testing results all matter in a study.
    As defined by the Official Terrorism Training For Law Enforcement:
    What Is Domestic Terrorism?
    Extreme force and violence perpetrated by
    the people government of a country, within that country,
    for the purpose of coercing its government and population public
    into modifying its behavior"

    You are either with Our Constitution or you are with The Terrorists!

    Government...if it leans to the left it eventually means theft. - tlc

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  






Part of USA TODAY Sports Digital Properties.