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  1. #18616
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravingallan View Post
    What is the big deal? David Ortiz was on ESPN tonight and said nothing has changed. Players were drinking beer, eating chicken and playing video games when they won two world series. Francona was popping pills when the Red Sox were on top of the league and winning ball games. This seems to be an attempt by ownership to defame Theo and Francona as they leave Boston. Or the Boston news media is making a big deal out of nothing.
    It's a smear campaign to place blame on guys on the way out. Blaming guys like Tito, Tek, Wake, Papi, Lackey - all guys who are very possibly gone by the time the team reports to Ft. Myers. Lucchino did it to Nomar, he did it to Pedro, he did it to Lowe and Damon and Manny (well, Manny deserved it). He'll do it to Pedroia eventually if he declines or leaves. If Ellsbury doesn't sign long-term, he'll be painted as a malcontent too.
    "I don't Twitter, I don't MyFace, I don't do any of those things, so I'd probably be the last to know."

    - Bill Belichick on the social media exploits of Chad Ochocinco

  2. #18617
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    Quote Originally Posted by Underdog View Post
    Link? The only thing I've heard that he's retiring from because of his wife's illness is his marriage.
    What exactly is that story? I never really got the full bit during the season.
    Mac9, to the true warrior. the ultimate competitor and the most worth adversary any athlete has ever faced off against. He was an inspiration for both his on the field play, off the field contributions and his leadership. The world is now a worse place without him.

    "Have the courage to have your wisdom regarded as stupidity" - Justice Antonin Scalia

    "Just because you're the lone voice in the wilderness, it doesn't mean you're wrong."
    - Ghandi

  3. #18618
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItIsWhatItIs View Post
    Disagree wholeheartedly. Westmoreland was a fantastic pick who was bound to be a stud but was hit by the medical equivalent of two lightning bolts. Xander Bogaerts could be an A-Rod caliber power hitter at SS/3B and he's just 19. Middlebrooks is a 25 HR, GG caliber prospect at 3B. Kalish and Reddick are both probable starters in the majors. Lavarnway is Mike Napoli 2.0. Brandon Jacobs, Miles Head, Bryce Brentz, Sean Coyle and Garin Cecchini are are plus hitting prospects, particularly Cecchini and Jacobs.

    The issue is their pitching prospects haven't panned out lately. Weiland and Wilson seem more back-end / set up men types. I'm far from sold on Ranaudo. Bowden petered out in AAA. Doubront has #2/3 stuff but AAA work ethic. Drake Britton fell apart this year. Stolmy Pimentel is still promising but was promoted too aggressively. Tazawa blew out his arm and has fringe stuff.

    That's part of why I think we should be dangling Youk around to get a young, cost-controlled pitcher from a team like the A's. Take a chance on Brett Anderson or maybe find a way to get Cahill or Gonzalez somehow.
    I wasn't factoring in Westy. He'd be knockin on the door right now IMO without that stuff. Kalish and Reddick are both limited players, Kalish upside is probably JD Drew, which while good, is still a long shot. Reddick has this amazing same problem most of the Sox hitters have: lack of discipline and contact. Jacobs is just another strong, but raw football player who's probably a better NFL than MLB prospect.

    I really do like Head. He's one of my faves. Coyle is about 5-6...there's only one Pedroia for a reason. Middlebrooks numbers are strongly BABIP related. He's got a high ceiling, but he's not a blue chipper. He's a poor man's Mike Olt right now. IMO Boegarts and Cecchini are the Sox top 2 prospects and they're 19 years old in short season ball/A-.

    And yes, the pitching is a disaster, never trading Bowden was flat out retarded, borderline malpractice.

    I just don't see it with the farm right now.
    Mac9, to the true warrior. the ultimate competitor and the most worth adversary any athlete has ever faced off against. He was an inspiration for both his on the field play, off the field contributions and his leadership. The world is now a worse place without him.

    "Have the courage to have your wisdom regarded as stupidity" - Justice Antonin Scalia

    "Just because you're the lone voice in the wilderness, it doesn't mean you're wrong."
    - Ghandi

  4. #18619
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItIsWhatItIs View Post
    It's a smear campaign to place blame on guys on the way out. Blaming guys like Tito, Tek, Wake, Papi, Lackey - all guys who are very possibly gone by the time the team reports to Ft. Myers. Lucchino did it to Nomar, he did it to Pedro, he did it to Lowe and Damon and Manny (well, Manny deserved it). He'll do it to Pedroia eventually if he declines or leaves. If Ellsbury doesn't sign long-term, he'll be painted as a malcontent too.
    I hate to say it, because I was Nomar's biggest fan on the board, but if Mnookin's book is close to accurate, Nomar deserved it too.
    Mac9, to the true warrior. the ultimate competitor and the most worth adversary any athlete has ever faced off against. He was an inspiration for both his on the field play, off the field contributions and his leadership. The world is now a worse place without him.

    "Have the courage to have your wisdom regarded as stupidity" - Justice Antonin Scalia

    "Just because you're the lone voice in the wilderness, it doesn't mean you're wrong."
    - Ghandi

  5. #18620
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Q View Post
    I wasn't factoring in Westy. He'd be knockin on the door right now IMO without that stuff. Kalish and Reddick are both limited players, Kalish upside is probably JD Drew, which while good, is still a long shot. Reddick has this amazing same problem most of the Sox hitters have: lack of discipline and contact. Jacobs is just another strong, but raw football player who's probably a better NFL than MLB prospect.

    I really do like Head. He's one of my faves. Coyle is about 5-6...there's only one Pedroia for a reason. Middlebrooks numbers are strongly BABIP related. He's got a high ceiling, but he's not a blue chipper. He's a poor man's Mike Olt right now. IMO Boegarts and Cecchini are the Sox top 2 prospects and they're 19 years old in short season ball/A-.

    And yes, the pitching is a disaster, never trading Bowden was flat out retarded, borderline malpractice.

    I just don't see it with the farm right now.
    I'll fight you on Coyle til the end of the earth. A kid at his age who shows that kind of plate discipline and power...I don't care if he's 5-6.

    I think you're underselling Kalish - he looks like Nick Swisher to me, which is a very productive player. Reddick might not be starting caliber for the Sox, but if given 600 PAs he'd put up something like .260/.320/.450, which is definitely MLB-caliber nowadays.

    WMB is a BABIP product but he's also loaded with all the tools scouts drool over and who predicted he'd grow into the talent when he matured. Again, maybe not a stud .300 hitter like he's showing this year, but he could be a legit GG candidate and slug enough to post 800+ OPS seasons regularly. And if he does hit for average, he'll be a perennial All Star.

    Jacobs, like Bogaerts and Cecchini, is probably too far away to figure out. But if he does make the leap, he'd be an absolute stud, 30-30 caliber hitter. Yes, boom-bust, but elite upside.

    Truth probably lies between my optimism and your pessimism. Is it like when we had Pap/Lester/Pedroia/Hanley in AA? No. But the cupboard isn't bare, and the Sox current roster has some of the greatest amounts of homegrown talent in the majors, so it's not like they need a massive overhaul of rookies for next year.
    "I don't Twitter, I don't MyFace, I don't do any of those things, so I'd probably be the last to know."

    - Bill Belichick on the social media exploits of Chad Ochocinco

  6. #18621
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    I'd love to be able to dangle Reddick+ for Upton.

    Coyle also K's alot for a guy his size, but you're right, the discipline is promising.
    Mac9, to the true warrior. the ultimate competitor and the most worth adversary any athlete has ever faced off against. He was an inspiration for both his on the field play, off the field contributions and his leadership. The world is now a worse place without him.

    "Have the courage to have your wisdom regarded as stupidity" - Justice Antonin Scalia

    "Just because you're the lone voice in the wilderness, it doesn't mean you're wrong."
    - Ghandi

  7. #18622
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    I really do like Cecchini and Bogaerts though.

    It's just...they're so far away it's hard to be too excited about them. So much can go wrong.
    Mac9, to the true warrior. the ultimate competitor and the most worth adversary any athlete has ever faced off against. He was an inspiration for both his on the field play, off the field contributions and his leadership. The world is now a worse place without him.

    "Have the courage to have your wisdom regarded as stupidity" - Justice Antonin Scalia

    "Just because you're the lone voice in the wilderness, it doesn't mean you're wrong."
    - Ghandi

  8. #18623
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    Yes, a lot can go wrong, but the list of guys playing SS at 18 who hit for power and patience like Bogaerts did...that's really rare.

    Cecchini just reminded me of Westmoreland in his NYPL performance. However, he's older than Westy was in Lowell, so my expectations are more tempered there. Jacobs...from all the reports I've read of first-hand accounts, he's a potential 4-tool star (defensive instincts seem just average, all others have + potential).
    "I don't Twitter, I don't MyFace, I don't do any of those things, so I'd probably be the last to know."

    - Bill Belichick on the social media exploits of Chad Ochocinco

  9. #18624
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItIsWhatItIs View Post
    It's a smear campaign to place blame on guys on the way out. Blaming guys like Tito, Tek, Wake, Papi, Lackey - all guys who are very possibly gone by the time the team reports to Ft. Myers. Lucchino did it to Nomar, he did it to Pedro, he did it to Lowe and Damon and Manny (well, Manny deserved it). He'll do it to Pedroia eventually if he declines or leaves. If Ellsbury doesn't sign long-term, he'll be painted as a malcontent too.
    How is Lackey not to blame in all of this? His actions were the most heinous of all. It's like he thought rules didn't apply to him and then he sucked Beckett and Lester into that vortex. He's the very definition of clubhouse cancer. And Tek? Isn't he the captain? Where are the stories of him stepping up and keeping these guys in check? So far, there are none.

    And Papi hasn't exactly helped himself at all during this mess. From his interrupting Tito during a presser to publicly stating the team was in panic mode to his latest interview where he said: "There's too much drama. I have been thinking about a lot of things. I don't know if I want to be part of this drama for next year." That's laughable because by all accounts, Ortiz was part of the drama (maybe he wasn't in the Lackey group but he certainly did other things that were outside of what he normally did in years past.

    As a longtime Sox fan, I'd have absolutely no problem if the team rid itself of the cancer (Lackey), let some of the others walk (Ortiz, Tek and Wake) and reformed Beckett and Lester.

  10. #18625
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    This team needs a babysitter. Maybe the Super Nanny is available? Bunch of entitled, whiny bitches. No one worth a damn is gonna want to come here after the way Francona was sh!t on on the way out. Maybe Butch Hobson can come back.
    StillSwinging: posting useless garbage since 8/07

  11. #18626
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    It doesn't need a babysitter...it needs a personality enema, much the same way the Pats did two years ago. Lackey and Beckett would be a good starting point. Hell, probably just those two would be enough from the sounds of things. But it's time to let the past go, as well. Ortiz, Varitek, Wake, even Papelbon.
    "My life is not easy, but it's awesome." - Steve Gleason

  12. #18627
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marley View Post
    How is Lackey not to blame in all of this? His actions were the most heinous of all. It's like he thought rules didn't apply to him and then he sucked Beckett and Lester into that vortex. He's the very definition of clubhouse cancer. And Tek? Isn't he the captain? Where are the stories of him stepping up and keeping these guys in check? So far, there are none.

    And Papi hasn't exactly helped himself at all during this mess. From his interrupting Tito during a presser to publicly stating the team was in panic mode to his latest interview where he said: "There's too much drama. I have been thinking about a lot of things. I don't know if I want to be part of this drama for next year." That's laughable because by all accounts, Ortiz was part of the drama (maybe he wasn't in the Lackey group but he certainly did other things that were outside of what he normally did in years past.

    As a longtime Sox fan, I'd have absolutely no problem if the team rid itself of the cancer (Lackey), let some of the others walk (Ortiz, Tek and Wake) and reformed Beckett and Lester.
    I shouldn't have put Lackey among the character assassination victims, he kind of deserves it. My point still stands - Lucchino and co. are scumbags for ****canning everyone on the way out the door.
    "I don't Twitter, I don't MyFace, I don't do any of those things, so I'd probably be the last to know."

    - Bill Belichick on the social media exploits of Chad Ochocinco

  13. #18628
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    Side note from the circus - WMB is 5-16 to start off the AZFL, with two doubles and a dinger. He's not ready for primetime yet, but I feel more confident by the day that we should trade Youk for help in the rotation or RF, leave 3B for Lowrie/Aviles for a year and give the job to WMB in 2013.

    And if we don't have a straight platoon with Salty/Lavarnway next year at C, I might tear all my hair out.
    "I don't Twitter, I don't MyFace, I don't do any of those things, so I'd probably be the last to know."

    - Bill Belichick on the social media exploits of Chad Ochocinco

  14. #18629
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    Quote Originally Posted by Underdog View Post
    It doesn't need a babysitter...it needs a personality enema, much the same way the Pats did two years ago. Lackey and Beckett would be a good starting point. Hell, probably just those two would be enough from the sounds of things. But it's time to let the past go, as well. Ortiz, Varitek, Wake, even Papelbon.
    I would like to see Ortiz stay on for at least one more season, but as far as I am concerned, Tek, Wake (especially Wake) and Papelbon can all move out although, if Tek doesn't play, he will probably end up somewhere in the organization. Wakefield should have said sayonara last yer.

  15. #18630
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    It appears to be virtually a done deal that Houston is moving to the AL after they're sold, which means interleague play year-round, which means it will be a waste of resources to carry a dedicated DH anymore. Especially a bad-bodied 36 year old who's likely going to be looking for multiple years and 8 figures per. They can DH Lavarnway for a chunk of the time he isn't catching, and split the rest of the games up between AGon and Youk to help keep them from running down at the end of the year (presuming they don't take 'Tizzy's advice and deal Youk).
    Last edited by Underdog; 10-13-2011 at 05:14 PM.
    "My life is not easy, but it's awesome." - Steve Gleason

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