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  1. #1
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    OT- All Purpose Red Sox Thread

    With the trade deadline fastly approaching (on Sunday), the Red Sox tenuously holding onto a lead in the AL East, all the drama that happened in last night's game (Clement and Nixon getting hurt, Schill's adventure as closer, Manny Delcarmen making his big-league debut), and the call by many to reduce the Red Sox threads, I figured I'd make a thread for Sox fans to sound off.

    There's plenty to talk about- possible trades, the health of Nixon and especially Clement, Schilling as the closer, whether to call up the young guys like Youkilis, Delcarmen, Papelbon, etc., Francona's managerial skills, plus more.

    Personally, I want to say that my prayers go out to Matt Clement. Besides being our staff ace the first 90+ games this year and jelling with the team quickly, Clement has been a stand-up guy from all accounts. All preliminary reports seem good, so hopefully he will be back shortly. Clement really dodged a bullet, this could have been a career-ending, or even life-threatening injury.

    The funny (as in strange, not 'ha-ha') thing about this is that he may be back in the lineup before Trot is. It appeared as though he either hurt his lower back or his oblique. Neither of those heal very easily, and considering how hard Trot swings every time he is up, that could mean a long time on the DL. If only Jay Payton had been a little more patient, he could have gotten those at-bats he was looking for. This latest injury just compounds my hope that they move Trot to 1B this year when Millar is let go and Olerud retires (or is released). It's easier to find a good RF these days than a good 1B I think.

    Did anyone else have a big beef with how Francona used the 'pen last night? I sure did. We have a longman, a AAA starter, in Jeremi Gonzalez. Clement is injured. You have unlimited time to get your reliever warmed up in that situation. Why not bring in your longman? It's a 5-1 lead in the 3rd. Why bring in the biggest righty specialist in the majors, and leave him in against a hot lefty?? These are the type of moves that change a sure win into an extra inning battle. Had Gonzalez come in after Clement, he could have done what Brazelton did for Tampa and saved our pen. Instead, we had to empty the cabinet just to stay in the game. What if Damon doesn't homer in the 10th? Who pitches the 11th? Definitely not Schill.

    As for Schilling, his pure numbers as a closer look pretty good, but man has he been a heart-attack in the late innings, no more of a sure thing than Foulke was before him.

    Schilling as the closer-
    10.2 IP, 12 H, 5 ER, 1 HRA, 1 BB, 11 K, 1.22 WHIP, 4.22 ERA
    He's lost 1 game and blown another, to go with 2 wins and 2 saves.

    While an upgrade from Foulke, many, including myself, expected more from Schilling than an ERA in the 4s and a relatively high WHIP. I think the more he pitches in this situation, the better he will do, but do have the luxury of letting him work that out? Schilling wants to start, and despite all the AJ Burnett rumors, the best way to get us back to the World Series would be getting a shutdown reliever and putting Schilling back in the rotation. Relievers come cheaper than Burnett would, and moving Schilling back to the rotation would give us that ace we are trying to trade for.

    I, personally, am a big proponent of the Mueller-Romero trade rumor. It seems to be based in truth, as both sides would benefit. Romero is signed cheaply through 2006, and Mueller has a young replacement waiting in Pawtucket by the name of Kevin Youkilis. While trading Mueller might hurt the clubhouse a bit, it would help the on-field product much more. There's a minimal drop-off from Mueller to Youkilis, and a big upgrade in bringing in Romero. We bring him in, suddenly Schilling can go to the rotation. That means we can move either Wake, Miller or Arroyo to the pen as the longman. Our staff would look like this-

    Schilling (I expect an ERA in the 3's)
    Wells (3.61 ERA since June 1)
    Clement (ERA in mid 4s at worst)
    Wakefield (4.42 ERA)
    Miller (4.57 ERA plus very promising last start)

    Pen-
    Timlin/Romero as closer
    Romero/Timlin as setup (whoever doesn't get closer job)
    Arroyo as longman/ 7th and 8th inning guy
    Myers as lefty specialist
    Bradford as righty specialist
    Gonzalez/Delcarmen/Foulke as 11th reliever

    I say put Arroyo in the pen because
    1) Miller has struggles in his first inning, leading me to believe he'd be a bad choice coming in as a reliever. Seems like he needs to settle in- you have no opportunity for that as a reliever.
    2) Wake is the vet and can give good innings as a starter.
    3) Arroyo kills righties and lefties kill him. Putting him in the pen and deciding who he will face easier should improve his effectiveness. I don't think 2 months in the pen will stunt his growth (if he is going to get better at this point- he is almost 30).

    Romero and Timlin both have ERAs under 2.5, and Timlin has experience as a closer. Both can get Ks and keep the ball in the park. Myers and Bradford can be used to pitch the 6th/7th when we have a lead almost every day. Since they only face 2, maybe 3 batters each day, they can go out 2-3 times per series. Arroyo should give the back of the 'pen a shot in the arm.

    The guy who really excites me is Manny Delcarmen. If you didn't see him last night, you missed a young righty with a power arm (hit 94-95 on the radar a few times) and a hammer curve that's in the low 80's, high 70s. He's a Boston native (Hyde Park, West Roxbury High) who I think will love the pressure of Boston. He could be a real shot in the arm in the 2nd half, perhaps like what K-Rod did for the Angels in the 2002 playoffs. He has averaged more than a K/IP for his minor league career, and has added life to his fastball since returning from Tommy John surgery. If Theo/Tito are smart, they should pray he uses his good first appearance as a chance to get on a roll, and then ride Manny and his power arm through the last 2 months of the year. We've all been waiting for the latest crop of young prospects to start showing up in the majors, and Manny could be the first guy to really contribute (I consider Youks to not be a prospect anymore, but a legit major-leaguer).
    Straight cash homey

  2. #2
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    Wowzers. :)

  3. #3
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    Wow nice post Harrisonned!

    I, too, will keep Matt Clement in my thoughts today and wish him a speedy recovery.

    I have seen the Trot Nixon to first base some place before. Is there any evidence that he can play there? Does he have any experience there? I think the Red Sox need to quit "making do" at first and get a legitimate first baseman. Just plugging some guy over there because he has a good bat and isnt all that mobile really isnt a great long term strategy, imo (see: Mike Stanley) Not for a team with the resources of the RedSox.

    I too was expecting more of Curt Schilling the Closer. I dont think he is healthy and is just trying to gut it out. He is an improvement over 2005 Keith Foulke, but not by much. I didnt see last nights game but the game Saturday against the White Sox he had some balls hit HARD in that inning. That isnt the Schilling we all know and love.

    I think it would be a waste to use Bronson Arroyo as the "back end of the pen" May as well trade him now while he has some value than to bury him back there.

    I wish i had gotten to see Declarmen. I didnt know he threw that hard. He and Papelbon may be the future of their pitching staff. Wouldnt it be cool to see a couple of home grown studs on the mound again?

    I dont really know that much about Romero, but if he is semi-competant he would help out the RedSox pen right now. I would miss Bill Mueller though. But only until Kevin Youkilis had his first 20 game hit streak ;)

  4. #4
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    It's not just the power arm of delcarment that's impressive. The break on his curve makes it a more than legitimate out-pitch

  5. #5
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    If Clement needs time on the DL, I think it's time for Schilling to go back into the starting rotation. With any luck, he may bounce back and be fine, if not, I think that the Sox should consider putting Schilling back in the starting rotation.

  6. #6
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    But what about Benjamin Watson? Will he be the difference maker this year in the Patriots offense? Will Cedric Cobbs show us something in training camp?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperPatsFan
    But what about Benjamin Watson? Will he be the difference maker this year in the Patriots offense? Will Cedric Cobbs show us something in training camp?
    Shhhh we dont discuss that in this forum. Ohh wait this is the pats forum :D

    In all fairness Harrisoned put it up as an all purpose red sox thread so i hope all red sox stuff goes on here.

    Hopefully the moderators will intervene with all the other threads and merge them into one cause it's been getting ridiculous over here. Some of us come in here to get away from all the coverage of baseball. It's not workig though.
    Last edited by Don_the_patfan; 07-27-2005 at 02:46 PM.
    REx's prediction in 2011

    1. Jets will win division FAIL
    2. Jets beat the Patriots FAIL
    3. Jets will beat Giants FAIL
    4. Jets will win AFC FAIL
    5. Jets will win the SB FAIL
    6. Ravens will beat Pats FAIL

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don_the_patfan
    Some of us come in here to get away from all the coverage of baseball. It's not workig though.
    Just to offer this up, and please don't take this as spamming, but I help maintain and moderate a Red Sox board and site over at RedSox2000.com if you all want to have another place to vent your Red Sox concerns. Then you can keep your Patriots and Red Sox worlds seperate if you like.

  9. #9
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    I wasn't that worried about the pen use last night. Desparate times, desparate measures. I'm just glad Delcarmon came in in a tight situation.

    Best wishes to Clement. I do wonder if we'll see Papelbon for a game.

    Last night I thought proved why Damon needs to be re-upped and stay in CF for a few more years.

    If Nixon is gone, the Sox should make a play for Adam Dunn. Or at least Sean Casey. But Dunn is better because he can play both OF and 1st, giving the Sox options when Nixon comes back.

    That was one of the best late-game finishes in a long time. It's only sad that the game was marred by two injuries -- especially Clement's.

  10. #10
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    I don't like the idea of trading Mueller to Minny for Romero. I'm sorry, this guy is more important to this team than a left handed reliever. I'm not saying that the bullpen doesn't look shaky -- it does. But find a way to hang on to Mueller.

    I love Johnny Damon. But doesn't Bernie Williams ring any bells? Do you guys really want to be paying him $10-12M five years down the line? The guy's asking price is too high, and while I love him to death, someone's going to spend a fortune on him. Use the money elsewhere.

    Delcarmen looks strong. Hopefully he can help the 'pen, and isn't just auditioning for another club.

  11. #11
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    I too hope Manny is for real. Our set up man of the future with Hansen coming in to shut off the lights..Sounds good :D

    But onto last nights game..I don't see why we did not use Gonzalez..We never do it seems like..And why would you use Bradford for clement? I would have put in Gonzalez. But one thing I must say about last night..Is for the first time in forever this team showed heart, and the desire to win. The bats never stopped. They kept hitting and hitting and never gave up. Even when Nixon went down..Even when Clement went down. It was great to see. A nice win, now lets try and take this series tonight.....
    "They did what they wanted to, when they wanted to do it, and how they wanted to do it"--Miami LB Zach Thomas on the Patriots offense

  12. #12
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    We're going to need a good young centerfielder sometime in the near future. I too hate the idea of losing Johnny, but, if we could get a decent defensive guy and maintain the core of the team while getting younger, I would not be opposed. Especially with how our younger pitchers and middle infielders are shaping up

  13. #13
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    As far as Nixon at first is concerned, I think that the idea is being thrown around a lot because he still has a plus bat, but his defense has steadily declined as the leg injuries have piled up. This back/oblique injury will only continue to slow him from an average defender who made some great hustle plays to a below average defender who won't make those same hustle plays.

    The thing about moving Nixon to first is that he is a guy who has good hands and tries hard. To me, I think that a shift to first seems pretty natural. Let him work on it during the winter and spring training. If it works out, great, if not, put him back in the OF. We have him signed for 2 more years, IIRC, or at least through next year. I just think that his lack of range in Fenway's spacious RF is starting to hurt us. We need a legitimate RFer (hopefully right-handed) who can play some defense for us. Nobody in our OF has a plus arm, except Kapler, who will never be an everyday player.

    I think Damon MUST stay here. The reason is twofold. First off, there is nobody, and I mean NOBODY, out there this free agent season that we could conceivably sign and hope to replace Damon with. Potential FA OFs include Tim Salmon, Sammy Sosa, BJ Surhoff, Jay Payton, Carl Everett, Bobby Higginson, Rondell White, Eli Marrero, Matt Stairs, Ruben Sierra, Richard Hidalgo, Jose Cruz, Brian Jordan, Raul Mondesi, Jeromy Burnitz, Todd Hollandsworth, Preston Wilson, Jeff Conine, Orlando Palmeiro, Joe McEwing, Kenny Lofton, Roger Cedeno, Larry Walker, John Mabry, Reggie Sanders, Brian Giles, Terrence Long, Dave Roberts, Eric Young, and Wil Cordero.

    Out of that group, I'd only even consider Payton (unlikely given the way he left), Burnitz, Wilson, and Lofton in CF, and Burnitz is a stretch. Of those, I'd say Wilson would be my favorite, but he is injury-prone and k's a TON. However, he can play good CF, has a good arm, and is a power-hitting righty.

    Clearly, the easiest way to remedy this is just give Damon the money he wants. While Damon's steals have dropped from 30 or so to 20 or so the past few years, his average has risen from .273 (2003)->.304 (2004)->.338 (2005), and his range factor (ability to track down balls in his zone of the field) has actually gotten better this year. With the power he can bring at the top of the lineup, his ability to hit with RISP, his speed around the basepaths, and his innate ability to foul off pitch after pitch with 2 strikes to wear out the SP and let his teammates see the SP's repetoire, Damon has turned himself into one of, if not THE premier CF.
    Straight cash homey

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TXPatfan12
    We're going to need a good young centerfielder sometime in the near future. I too hate the idea of losing Johnny, but, if we could get a decent defensive guy and maintain the core of the team while getting younger, I would not be opposed. Especially with how our younger pitchers and middle infielders are shaping up
    We did just draft a guy out of Oregon State who's supposed to be a Damon clone. Jacoby Ellsbury, who was their first pick in the draft. Here's a synopsis from the Red Sox site:


    Ellsbury was a 2005 Baseball America first-team All-American, Pac-10 Co-Player of the Year and team Co-MVP. He hit .365 (236-for-646) with 60 stolen bases, 168 runs scored, 37 doubles, 16 homers and 101 RBI in 160 games over three seasons at Oregon State University. He also posted a .464 on-base percentage, .522 slugging percentage and .990 fielding percentage, committing only four errors in 387 total chances. He holds the Oregon State record for career runs scored and his 86 hits during the 2005 regular season are the most in a single season in Beavers history.

  15. #15
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    As for JC Romero, he's a career 4.26 ERA lefty pitcher.

    This year, he is 2-2 with 9 holds, 2.13 ERA, 1.47 WHIP, 34 Ks in 38 IP, has allowed only 3 HRs all year. Lefties have a paltry .513 OPS against him, hitting an even .200 against him (lefties have a career .610 OPS against them).

    If we can hold on with Schilling as the closer until Foulke returns (who I expect to return to some form of his old self after he has had some time to rest his arm and his psyche), Timlin and Romero for the 8th plus Bradford and Myers for the 7th will be a strong 'pen.

    Giving up a 34 year old contact 3B with 2 creaky knees for a 29 year old reliever who dominates lefties seems like a good trade. The best part is he's cheap, making only 1.25 mill this year and 2.7 next year. If Terry Ryan still is dangling this trade, we've got to make it, IMO.

    Romero's pitching ability per ESPN-
    Romero throws a 93-MPH fastball that sinks, a big-breaking slider and a changeup. He struggles when he tries to hit the corners with his pitches. The Twins have pleaded with him to throw toward the middle of the plate and let his natural movement produce grounders. Romero has proven stubborn and emotional, and his lack of composure helps turn small mistakes into big innings.
    Straight cash homey

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