An insult to the whole NFL...

[The Q]

Originally Posted by Jack's libido

Anderson's been terrible, and if the decision were made strictly by who gives the team the best chance to win, Quinn would probably start.

But I personally see no reason why the Browns shouldn't be allowed to take finances into account when making this decision.

The minuscule improvement they'd get on the field simply isn't worth paying $11 million.

Apparently you've never heard of "good faith"

[The Q]

Originally Posted by kenroher

Excuse me but Anderson won 10 games in one season as Cleveland's starter what has Quinn ever done. HISTORICALLY Anderson has been a successful QB while Quinn has been a total flop. It seems to me that you are the dense one here and trying to rewrite history to suit your own argument rather than look at the facts. So Quinn has clearly and irrefutably outplayed Anderson this season but Anderson won the only game this season that Cleveland has. Gee I always thought you played the game to win.
Crennel took a look at Quinn in practice and started Anderson for 2 seasons even if Anderson was struggling last year, he continued to start him. Now your saying Mangini cannot possibly be right about Quinn either and is only starting Anderson because of the escalator clause yet Cleveland is paying Anderson starter's money too.
You argument is so full of holes that any judge would laugh you out of court. Quinn simply hasn't done anywhere near enough to prove he should be starting and you fail to point out why Cleveland who is desperate for a true starting QB wouldn't want Quinn to succeed and wouldn't gladly pay him the escalator clause if they believed he had any chance to be a successful QB. They took Quinn with a 1st round pick because they needed a starting QB and have invested a lot of time and money to get him up to snuff, but he has done nothing for 3 years to prove the job belongs to him and just because you and Ducky think he could be a successful QB doesn't make it true, it is just wishful thinking based on zero facts.

The zero facts part is on you.

The FACT is that based on any logical individual player metric Quinn has been the better QB.

Pulling up something from 2 years ago has ZERO relevance now, and one with a clue could see that.

The best argument you have is he went 2-17 and won? Really?

This case would be easier than I thought for the NFLPA.

[rjohmit]

Originally Posted by Jack's libido

The minuscule improvement they'd get on the field simply isn't worth paying $11 million.

See...I think it should be about more than immediate improvement at the QB position. I think it should be about actually trying to develop the guy...letting him get some real game experience, even if it means he struggles. Peyton Manning said that he learned more in the 4th quarters of games his rookie year than any other time.

But its been clear for years that even if Cleveland's coaching staff wanted to develop young players, they SUCK at it...and I dont just mean Quinn. Except maybe Cribbs, every young player the Browns have has gotten progressively worse, not better.

Everyone's hung up on the $11 million...but if Quinn developed into a good QB, Cleveland would happily pay twice that. There are plenty of NFL players that aren't worth what they're getting paid.

[Jack's libido]

Originally Posted by rjohmit

See...I think it should be about more than immediate improvement at the QB position.

And if the coach who he was drafted under were still there, maybe it would be.

But this coach evidently doesn't think Quinn is the future.

[Jack's libido]

Originally Posted by The Q

Apparently you've never heard of "good faith"

You sound like a first-year law student trying out every new term you come across in your books.

[rjohmit]

Originally Posted by Jack's libido

And if the coach who he was drafted under were still there, maybe it would be.

But this coach evidently doesn't think Quinn is the future.

Same dude who traded Sanchez for a bunch of Jets backups right?

[LT22]

The truth is Quinn has been f'd by the Browns over and over. Phil Savage orchestrated the hold out because he did not want Quinn to play any meaningful games as a rookie. Even though Quinn was better than Frye and Anderson in the 2007 pre season he was 3rd string for the opener. A game the Charlie Frye started, because DA was the worst QB on Cleveland's roster.

DA took over halfway through game 1 and he racked up nice stats against really inferior competition (Cincy, Seattle, Zona, ST Louis specifically) for a little over halk the 2007 season. In the last several games he was mostly awful and he is mostly to blame for Cleveland missing the playoffs as he choked against Cincy throwing 4 INTs and had it not been for some stone hands on the Cincy DBs it may have been 10 or 11 INTs that day.

Despite the video evidence of DA being mostly a bad QB, Savage decided that he would start in 2008 - so Quinn was backup again. DA was awful for the first 4 weeks of 2008. Yes, he had a concussion in the pre season and BE hurt his foot in a stupid accident on the practice field, but DA was the reason the Browns lost at home to Pitt 10-6 and the next week to Baltimore when the game was close until a horrid pick 6 and on the ensuing drive another horrid INT lead to a 28-10 Baltimore win. Quinn should have replaced him in the week 3 Cincy win and started from that point. Instead DA played on, better mind you for 3 or 4 weeks.

Then Quinn starts and played well against a weak Denver team. Team fell short thanks to 2 awful penalties (Winslow and Edwards) and a Winslow drop on the last drive. A week later Quinn struggled with a finger injury but lead the team to a win over Buffalo. Then he was pulled against Houston, terrible performance with a hand injury.

Fast forward to 2009, DA awful and Quinn not a lot better in preseason. Mangini runs a stupid secret QB competition, neither guy gets reps. He finally chooses Quinn, but does not let him play in week 4 of preseason. Admittedly Quinn was bad through the first 2.5 games, but no run game, bad play by WRs and the right side of the OL,a nd a bad rookie OC are at least to share the blame.

Enter DA - he has played bad, historically bad, yet he has continued to go out there. The bonus could be a factor, but now that half the season is gone and the chances of Quinn playing in 70% of the snaps is unlikely, there is no longer an excuse not to find out if he can play or not. If he plays the rest of the games, that will be 10.5 of 16 games, or 65% of the season and probably about that percentage of the snaps.

Say he is awful from games 9-14, then put Ratliff in week 15 and 16 and then there is no chance he makes the escalator and there is no way for the NFLPA to do anything. I mean if he started 7.5 games and sucked ass, the coaches need to know if Ratliff can be part of the future or not.

It makes no sense to go back to DA after the bye, not for money, and certainly not if they want to win. I am a Browns fan but I could care less who is the QB as long as they compete and win. I do not care if they bring back Don Strock, dig up Julius Caesar, or call me in as long as they compete and eventually win games.

[All Hype]

The fact is, Quinn has been unable to show enough in practice or games over the last 3 seasons to get on the field. That speaks volumes. Right now, more than anything, Mangini needs to win football games to save his job. If he thought Brady Quinn could do that I'm sure he would be on the field. Same was true of Romeo before Mangini. We don't get to see what Quinn looks like in practice every day, the coaches do.

Jeff Fisher didn't want to start Vince Young, despite his team's dismal play. He only did so because the owner essentially told him too. That tells you how bad Young must look in practice, if Fisher still thought Collins gave the Titans the best chance to win games.

All that being said, I agree 100% with Jack. Why shouldn't a team be allowed to consider finances in its decisions? Every day teams cut players who are good enough to play, or at least have a roster spot. They do so based soley on finances. Where are the NFLPA lawsuits? This is no different IMO.

[Jack's libido]

Originally Posted by rjohmit

Same dude who traded Sanchez for a bunch of Jets backups right?

Hey, I didn't say he was making the right decision.

Just that it's his decision to make.

[StraightCashHomey]

Originally Posted by All Hype

The fact is, Quinn has been unable to show enough in practice or games over the last 3 seasons to get on the field. That speaks volumes. Right now, more than anything, Mangini needs to win football games to save his job. If he thought Brady Quinn could do that I'm sure he would be on the field. Same was true of Romeo before Mangini. We don't get to see what Quinn looks like in practice every day, the coaches do.

Jeff Fisher didn't want to start Vince Young, despite his team's dismal play. He only did so because the owner essentially told him too. That tells you how bad Young must look in practice, if Fisher still thought Collins gave the Titans the best chance to win games.

All that being said, I agree 100% with Jack. Why shouldn't a team be allowed to consider finances in its decisions? Every day teams cut players who are good enough to play, or at least have a roster spot. They do so based soley on finances. Where are the NFLPA lawsuits? This is no different IMO.

And yet as soon as he is forced to start the QB he assumed was terrible, the team wins the first game of the year and scores 30 points, with his QB completing over 75% of his passes. Crazy! Using the Fisher-Young comparison only strengthens the Quinn debate - even if the young guy isn't that good, you must at least give him a shot to see what happens. The upside on DA is nil; while the upside on Quinn might be close to nil, it's better than nothing.

[All Hype]

Originally Posted by StraightCashHomey

And yet as soon as he is forced to start the QB he assumed was terrible, the team wins the first game of the year and scores 30 points, with his QB completing over 75% of his passes. Crazy! Using the Fisher-Young comparison only strengthens the Quinn debate - even if the young guy isn't that good, you must at least give him a shot to see what happens. The upside on DA is nil; while the upside on Quinn might be close to nil, it's better than nothing.

Yeah, Young completed 15 passes for 125 yards. He did basically nothing but watch Chris Johnson and Lendale White gash the pathetic Jags defense for 280 yards.

The point is, the coaches see these guys play every day. I'd say they are in better position to know who gives their team the best chance to win.

All that aside, I could buy the "It can't hurt to see what Quinn has" argument, if it didn't cost the team anything. If there's a chance the Browns would have to pay him $11 million next year, I'd sit him too. They can play him in the last third of the season to see what he's got, and not have to take a big cap hit for another awful QB next year. Could you imagine if the Browns had to take a hit of over $20 million next year for DA and Brady Quinn? Utter disaster. IMO, if they are sitting Quinn for this reason, it's one of the few smart moves they've made this year.

[LT22]

Browns won't be paying anything for DA in 2010. He is due a 7.45M salary which won't be paid when they do not pick up the 2M roster bonus in March. Since the original signing bonus was $7M, I guess the cap hit is like $2.3M.

As I mentioned earlier Quinn needs to play in 70% of 2009 snaps and if he starts in week 10 he won't be on target for that number even if he plays the rest of the season.

There is no reason now not to put him back in there unless the staff wants to see Ratliff. DA is what he is ad Savage f'd up when he gave DA the 3 year deal.

[The Q]

Originally Posted by Jack's libido

You sound like a first-year law student trying out every new term you come across in your books.

You sound like someone who doesn't know a damn thing about the law period.

[The Q]

Ken,

I've seen you post in the baseball forum so I can pose the question.

Do you only look at Wins when determining who should win the Cy Young?


Please, try to dance around these facts:

Passing G Comp Att Pct Yds Y/A Y/G TD Int Long Sack Yds/L Fum FumL
Derek Anderson 6 66 154 42.9 681 4.4 113.5 2 9 43 9 72 5 3
Brady Quinn 4 46 77 59.7 409 5.3 102.3 1 3 26 10 46 2 2

[Jack's libido]

Originally Posted by The Q

You sound like someone who doesn't know a damn thing about the law period.

And if I were arguing about what I think the law would say about this matter, you might have a point.

But I'm not.